Friday Facts #430 - Drowning in Fluids

[XeonEvolved]

I'm trying to understand the new changes. So you are maxed at 6000/s throughput / max 5 pumps? So would BP below be a viable max flow fluid bus?

5 pumps x12 = 6000/s each line
5 lines x 6000/s = 30,000 throughput, each span 250 wide, each row offset.
https://factoriobin.com/post/pkigJQgn1-yEVUmv-EXPIRES

Hi and welcome to the forum

From what I understand, the 6000/s hardcoded limit applies per in/output. So you are NOT limited to 5 pumps, as these have a "soft" limit of 1200/s anyway. Btw you are not required to build 5 fluid lines in parallel, as they all "collapse" into the same fluid segment with shared capacity and fill level.
I think the 6000/s are more relevant in the context of the in/output factors based on fill level:
An empty segment will accept 6000/s per input maximum but output nothing.
An 25% filled segment will accept 4500/s per input maxium and spread 1500/s per output maximum.
50% -> 3000/s per input, 3000/s per output, and so on...

But still, these limits only should be relevant for quality production buildings, and the interconnections between fluid segments. Standart tier production buildings shouldn't be affected by this limit.

Thank you for the explanation. Makes more sense.


With this FFF I do understand wanting to limit long distance pipes but the 250x250 area feels unnatural and out of place. I do like CeDoMain's ideas about limiting flow based on pipe and junction count. Add more pipes get less flow, junctions are more severe, makes sense. If you want to simplify it more than that then what about counting pipes/tanks in a segment with a penalty for entity type?

As an example:
Pipe Segment Value = (Pipes x 1) + (Underground pair x 14) + (tanks x 10)
Then flow for each segment would be: Flow = 1/(fullness) / (Pipe Web Value) * (Constant multiplier Y)

If you have a 990 long pipe half full: 1/(.5) /(990) * (Y) = .0020*Y
Same distance in undergrounds: 1/(.5) /(90*14) * (Y) = 0.0014*Y
Same distance in tanks : 1/(.5) / (330*10) * (Y) = 0.0006*Y

Formula can change but the idea is more pipes (long distance or complex web) also adversely affect flow. Early game you can run long lengths with low flow to jumpstart refining but later in game you need to break into more segments to get better throughput. Players are motivated to use pumps at intervals to get more flow. Players would have to balance running pipes vs undergrounds long distance as undergrounds are more flow-constraining. If you want a lot of tank storage you need to integrate pumps to keep up flow rather than filling the furthest tank in a long stretch the same as the closest.

[DaNike]

I feel like these changes oversimplify the fluid mechanics. The 1.1 mechanics are fun; their only real problem is their dependence on update order, making it very finicky to make systems which require high throughput. As much as I respect the performance aspects of the new system, I feel that it looses out on otherwise interesting mechanics.

[Blaster]

Nice, now do heatpipes!

[Footbal]

Thanks for taking us through the changes! I love hearing about these sorts of development puzzles every Friday! The new mechanics sound like they will do a good job of balancing strategy, ease of play, and the creation of enjoyable problems to solve. It's probably a good thing that I won't be able to abuse the bi-directionality of an enormous pipe system anymore. I wonder if it will significantly affect the way I build the fluids into my main bus...

[Koub]

A lot of effort seems to have gone into balancing pipes vs wagons, but unfortunately barrels seem to have been (once again) completely forgotten about and are now likely even more useless.

This part made me particularly sad

Will you choose the near-instant transportation of a pipeline, or the enhanced flexibility of a fluid train?

The quote should be more like this:

Will you choose the near-instant transportation of a pipeline, the enhanced flexibility of a fluid train, or the inconvenience and awkwardness of fluid barrels?

While I understand that barrels do still have some niche uses (although the fluid wagon capacity increase somewhat mitigates some of this), and are the only way to carry fluids via bots, are there any plans to address barrels in the future to make them more generally viable for certain playstyles?

Try to send fluids to another planet with pipes and trains

[tminusfiveminutes]

My guess for why the pipe limit is based on area instead of pure pipe length (other than ease of calculation, especially if the pipe has loops) goes like this:
Imagine you need to place a building in the middle of your factory, but there's a pipe in the way. Currently you'd just place pipe around where you want the machine, and you're good to go. If pipe limits are based on length though; that pipe might be right at the limit, and you won't know without trying to break things. Worse still, you might route the pipe around and not notice that now it's too long until you see that science is stopped.

Unrelated, but I do hope that when you're click-dragging underground pipes and you reach the pipe limit, it will automatically place the last pipe-from-ground and stop, rather than having to mine and place pipes until it tells you where the limit is.

[Koub]

Slightly tangential, but I was thinking the other week about major breaking changes by version:

2.0: train curves, large fluid networks
0.15: science, boilers
0.12: turrets, belt ends/corners

What others am I missing?

0.12 : the "you win" changed from building rocket defense to building a rocket silo, and sending a satellite with a rocket
0.13 : map gen change - although not breaking games, but chunks generated after that did not fit those generated before.
0.16 : another terrain generation change, red science pack recipe change, fluid wagon change (became single fluid starting from 3)
0.17 : simplified basic oil processing, science pack refactor

[Yinan]

[..] have been nerfed to [..], but this can be increased with quality

I absolutely hate having to read this over and over again nearly every FF.
You said that Quality is absolutely optional, yet here we are seeing that you balanced around people using quality, meaning that without it everything is just so much worse than before...
In short, Quality has defacto become NOT optional by now, unless you want to see your stuff being nerfed to the ground...

[shopt]

I'm seeing a few posts complaining that quality is not actually "optional", due to nerfs. Are people seriously saying that the new normal quality pumps are so bad that they can't be used? For the few cases they don't then just build a second pump. If there's a cap on how many can fit (eg. a fluid wagon) then just build longer or more stops. Going for higher quality pumps seems like the most complicated and expensive solution, hardly the "mandatory" one.

Having said that, I think quality may have influenced these changes (which to be clear does not make it mandatory), but the more I see it looks like it's just to make sure that normal quality isn't so OP that higher quality items become pointless. Maxing out a 1.1 pump is rare outside of train loading/unloading. For most bases the 14 seconds (really 7 seconds if you want to match the 1.1 wagon capacities) a fluid wagon now takes to load/unload will have such a negligible impact. I know I would have never bothered with quality pumps if they stayed at 1.1 levels. Hell I still probably wont, but I'll at least think about it now that a single pump doesn't empty a fluid tank/wagon in ~2 seconds.

For such a massive update nerfs will and should happen. If they don't, then all problems eventually become trivial if you only let the devs buff things.

[TheRaph]

A lot of effort seems to have gone into balancing pipes vs wagons, but unfortunately barrels seem to have been (once again) completely forgotten about and are now likely even more useless.

This part made me particularly sad

Will you choose the near-instant transportation of a pipeline, or the enhanced flexibility of a fluid train?

The quote should be more like this:

Will you choose the near-instant transportation of a pipeline, the enhanced flexibility of a fluid train, or the inconvenience and awkwardness of fluid barrels?

While I understand that barrels do still have some niche uses (although the fluid wagon capacity increase somewhat mitigates some of this), and are the only way to carry fluids via bots, are there any plans to address barrels in the future to make them more generally viable for certain playstyles?

I do like Barrels honestly, they are convenient in situations where you just dont want to setup any long term infrastructure, or want to be ready for any Fluid Recipe you might need randomly while not at Base. Also when using Barrels with Logistics Bots, if you really do not like laying Pipes.

Edit: Now I really want Logistics Requests for Cars and Tanks...

The was no announcement for abandoning barrels at all. So I think they will still exist.
But in case of mass transport you probably have to chose between pipe and train.
The use of barrels for special purposes stay untouched.

[Axymerion]

Try to send fluids to another planet with [...] trains

I'm sure Renai Transportation will have a thing for that.

[meganothing]

[..] have been nerfed to [..], but this can be increased with quality

I absolutely hate having to read this over and over again nearly every FF.
You said that Quality is absolutely optional, yet here we are seeing that you balanced around people using quality, meaning that without it everything is just so much worse than before...
In short, Quality has defacto become NOT optional by now, unless you want to see your stuff being nerfed to the ground...

Are you comparing factories 1.1 with 2.0? Then I remember Wube saying they shortened everything to make the gameplay length equal. For example if your goal is a 1 rocket/s factory then in 2.0 you would probably get that with a much smaller factory, if there were no nerfs to individual parts. Also there are new faster belts and stuff. So those nerfs combined with these buffs might just make the 1/rocket/s factory about equally big.

Now even if that weren't the case and you would need say a 20% increase in area and material to reach that goal compared to 1.1. Would that matter to you? Are you on a timetable? Did you write down the time and material of your 1.1 factories and now need to beat those values?

[Koub]

Try to send fluids to another planet with [...] trains

I'm sure Renai Transportation will have a thing for that.

Space catapults FTW \o/

[Tertius]

Having read FFF #416 Fluids 2.0 again and this FFF, I'm wondering what items exactly will be included in the fluid segment abstraction? According to FFF #416, just 'Pipes, underground pipes, and storage tanks are merged into fluid "segments".' However, there are items such as boilers, heat exchangers, steam engines, steam turbines, flamethrower turrets and mining drills on uranium ore who passthrough fluid to their other side for convenience. Are these passthrough "pipes" included in one segment, so all tiled items are actually on the same segment, or are they segment borders and create another segment on their other side?

That's relevant for throughput, because if these machines are segment dividers, just a maximum flow of 6000/s from one machine to the next is possible and it takes time for fluid to get from the start to the end of a tiled setup just like with the 1.1 fluid system.

It's also relevant for huge border defense walls with flamethrower turrets. If the flamethrower turret is a segment divider, existing flame thrower border defense blueprints can stay as they are. However, if they're becoming all part of one big segment, the defense blueprints need to change to include oil handover from one 250-tile segment to the next.

[Repzak]

Honestly, I'm not sold on this change. While the last change was perhaps oversimplified, and turned pipes into the power network, this just seems like busywork to me before the late game.

This change seems great for lategame/postgame bases. Once you're relying on blueprints and robots, the limitations on pipes will not matter - just throw in some pumps and power.

But early-/midgame I see this as causing annoyance. When you have to connect those first 1-2 fairly remote oilfields, you now have to provide pumps and power for them, and while flameturrets may have been overpowered this is not the way to nerf them. Again the nerf will not matter at all lategame, but it *will* matter a lot for early-/mid game defenses and be annoying to deal with.

I can't really be in favor of gameplay mechanics that primarily serve to annoy early-/midgame to prevent some speculative abuse lategame (you can easily still pull infinite pipelines at that point if you really want to - pumps will not be a limitation), nor introducing arbitrary limits for no better reason than that.

I do love the new visualizations though - so there is that at least.

[meganothing]

Having read FFF #416 Fluids 2.0 again and this FFF, I'm wondering what items exactly will be included in the fluid segment abstraction? According to FFF #416, just 'Pipes, underground pipes, and storage tanks are merged into fluid "segments".' However, there are items such as boilers, heat exchangers, steam engines, steam turbines, flamethrower turrets and mining drills on uranium ore who passthrough fluid to their other side for convenience. Are these passthrough "pipes" included in one segment, so all tiled items are actually on the same segment, or are they segment borders and create another segment on their other side?

That's relevant for throughput, because if these machines are segment dividers, just a maximum flow of 6000/s from one machine to the next is possible and it takes time for fluid to get from the start to the end of a tiled setup just like with the 1.1 fluid system.

It's also relevant for huge border defense walls with flamethrower turrets. If the flamethrower turret is a segment divider, existing flame thrower border defense blueprints can stay as they are. However, if they're becoming all part of one big segment, the defense blueprints need to change to include oil handover from one 250-tile segment to the next.

'Pipes, underground pipes, and storage tanks are merged into fluid "segments".' seems very clear to me.
The passthrough function seems like a convenience function for "machines" like heat exchangers or steam engines, their central function is to be consumers of whatever is delivered per pipe network.

[sarge945]

Try to send fluids to another planet with pipes and trains

For some reason I could swear there was a rocket equivalent of a fluid wagon/compartment, but I went back and looked and indeed, you're correct.

Edit: Now I really want Logistics Requests for Cars and Tanks...

This would probably have to be managed via a building, similar to the Equipment Gantry mod

[naahuc]

I was quite critical of the originally suggested system, but I think I like this.

It does not trivialize fluids completely and requiring pumps makes throughput stuff more legible.
250x250 seemed odd at first glance, but any other number chosen would have the same "issue" people are complaining about apparently.

Just a minor point of clarification so I can visualize it better: How would that 250x250 area be aligned (I'm assuming it's rectangular and not circular)?
1) Is it 250 tiles in any direction from the pump output (making it a 500x500 area in practice you need to put the next pump in)
2) Is it a 250x250 square centered on the pump output, so basically 125 tiles in any direction (which would make it 11x11 length pipes with 2 pumps at each end)?

[Tertius]

Just a minor point of clarification so I can visualize it better: How would that 250x250 area be aligned (I'm assuming it's rectangular and not circular)?

The words from the FFF: "Pipelines are constrained to a 250x250 tile area, and exceeding this limit will cause all flow through the pipeline to cease."
I understand it's a 250x250 tile square area. Given a list of coordinates (the coordinates of all the pipes), it's very easy to compute an enclosing square. So, after the engine created the segment, it computes its enclosing square. Then it checks if one side of that square is longer than 250, and if this is the case, the whole segment is marked as invalid and no fluids are transported within the whole segment. There is nothing cut off, no artificial border to just stop flowing the fluid too far - it's the whole segment that has been invalidated.

It is as if some bureaucrat prohibits the use of a perfectly fine finished pipe, because it violates some regulation. You know, bureaucracy is the single most powerful skill in any gaming environment: it can stop everything happen with the snip of a finger.

[klogo_hopper]

I understand why the 250x250 tile limit was introduced, but I have a few suggestions:

1. When a pipeline exceeds the limit, make it so that only part that is outside the 250x250 area stops working, but pipeline that is inside continues to work.

2. An indicator of a non-working pipeline. Cool thing. In the article, we were shown how it is displayed in the middle of pipeline and in this place player places a pump.
Suggestion: make indicator display where pump really needs to be placed, i.e. at the "end" of pipeline where limit was exceeded.