Friday Facts #430 - Drowning in Fluids

[shopt]

Still not an ideal system, but this is the least bad between this, 1.1, and the omni-pipes. Yes, having to build a pump every 250 tiles is arbitrary, but I'll take arbitrary limitations over "dependent on build order" or magic omni-pipes. Yes you can snake the pipe within the bounding square to demonstrate that this limitation is unrealistic, good for you I guess.

And now I'm hearing this will nerf flamethrower turrets too? Even better.

I'm also a bit puzzled as to why this doesn't line up to a chunk boundary (or at least a multiple of large power pole distance).

[Mycroft4114]

This seems like a good compromise. Small, local setup will just work, with no fiddling about.

Only once you get bigger do you have to start thinking about mechanics and flow restrictions.

[raiguard]

And once again, I'll repeat my comment from "Fluids "2.0" topic - just make new system a setting or a mod to turn on/off. The fact that this simplified version of fluid handling is being forced on all players and not just the ones who'll buy SA is mindboggling to me.

I am sorry, but i agree with the last part of this post, i actually LOVE the fluid system of 1.1, only thing that maybe should be changed is that buildings do not consume fluid in the same order they are built like it does now..

So please make a setting (or a mod) to use the "classic" fluid system, this system just feels so natural.

I love all the other changes and can not wait to play to new expansion!

"Just" being able to toggle the fluid system is completely infeasible, sorry. The old system is gone, reduced to atoms.

[Loewchen]

what is, post expansion, the limit of what I can put through pipes without using pumps?

go on, tell me!, if it's less than 2k/s it will break reactor design in an absolutely fundamental way

It's infinite, there is no limit.

[Theikkru]

[...]
I mean before I used a design that doesn't pump directly into/from a tank, there was a pipe segment between them. Yea, it limited the output to around 6000 IIRC, but it allowed for a rather compact design with load balancing too. Here's an example.
09-27-2024, 18-51-39.png

Now, I will have to use three pumps to get a half of that, and because of the way pumps are with much larger and more unwieldy footprint.

Under the new system, you won't need to load balance, read from multiple tanks, or have tanks close to the train because fluid calculations are identical within a segment. You could just parallel feed all pumps from the train directly into one pipe and shove all the tanks in one spot somewhere within the 250×250 segment limitation (or whatever it ends up being).

[Theikkru]

[...]
what is, post expansion, the limit of what I can put through pipes without using pumps?

go on, tell me!, if it's less than 2k/s it will break reactor design in an absolutely fundamental way

From this FFF:

[...]there is no limitation on the total flow through a pipeline in a given tick[...]

Looks like it was you who didn't do the reading...

[Neutronium]

Sure, it had to be nerfed from its original form, I get it. My biggest concern is how it will perform in legendary beaconed megabase setups. Since the effects of quality multiply with each other (machine speed, module speed, beacons) 1-2.5x scaling for pumps won't be sufficient. Quality scaling for pump throughputs need to have this in mind.

Maybe you already thought this out raiguard. But reading the FFF this is my main concern. I want to build huge in my SA playthrough and I just don't know how this new system interacts with not only lategame/postgame builds, but the greater fluid systems they utilize.

[GregoriusT]

And now I'm hearing this will nerf flamethrower turrets too? Even better.

I did not even notice that one! Now we need to actually care about where and what direction we insert the flammable Fluid for all our Flamethrower Wall Blueprints!

That is unless we can just pump it both ways in each Blueprint-Tile and it somehow sloshes and evens out like in the old Fluid System.

[shopt]

And now I'm hearing this will nerf flamethrower turrets too? Even better.

I did not even notice that one! Now we need to actually care about where and what direction we insert the flammable Fluid for all our Flamethrower Wall Blueprints!

That is unless we can just pump it both ways in each Blueprint-Tile and it somehow sloshes and evens out like in the old Fluid System.

I think to get fluid to flow both ways over long distances we will need a pair of pumps facing opposite directions at each "extent" boundary, with a bit of circuitry so that only one operates at a time.

[adam_bise]

The Water to Steam ratio change makes it more possible to supply power or nuclear setups using fluid wagons or even water barrels.

The reason I never even tried this is not throughput limitations; it's because there's no unpowered way to get fluids from barrels or wagons into pipes.
It feels like a broken catch 22 that you need to bring solar panels to power the pumps (for wagons) or assemblers (for barrels) needed to feed water into the boilers to power the pumps or assemblers needed to feed wa...anyways, please make at least one of these methods "gravity feed" a small amount of fluid into pipes, even without power. I think it would also be a nice niche use case for barrels if they could be unloaded without power, albeit very slowly.

There is a burner pump mod that fixes this nicely

[MeduSalem]

Ah nice.

I am happy that my idea of the inverse proportional output also made it into the system. xD

Anyway I agree with some of the other people... make the restriction 256x256. Seems neater.

[Taipion]

Let's get you all a more practical example of why limiting even pumps to 1200/s breaks reactor designs to the core!

First off: ignore water input, it was already irrelevant/trivial, no need to even talk about it, this is all about steam!

You know reactors are 5x5, and for a tile-able design we use a standard double row,
on both sides you have 2 rows of heat exchangers (2 tiles high x2 = 4 tiles height),
with 1 pipe in between them (1 tile) and 1 line of heat-pipe on top (again 1 tile, ignoring the bottom heat pipe for now),
you get a height of 2+2+1+1 = 6 tiles, so on each side you have 5 double rows of heat exchangers per 6 reactors,

as reactors get bigger, a single reactor approaches the maximum of 160mw,
but its 6:5 so you have to deal with 192mw per double row of heat exchangers,

a single heat exchanger outputs 103 units of steam per second per 10mw,
so you need 20 heat exchangers for 192mw, outputting 1977.6 units of steam per second.

If you did not pay attention up till here: 1977.6/s is actually more than 1200/s,
and breaking this apart in any other way, for an infinitely tile-able design would simply not just not work but also look extremely ugly while trying!
(Now in my reactor designs, I would consolidate 3 of those into one "half-pump-pipe" that can handle 6k/s, but ofc that is no more!)

So to make this unmistakably clear,
limiting fluids to 1200/s breaks reactor design fundamentally!

[Taipion]

[...]
what is, post expansion, the limit of what I can put through pipes without using pumps?

go on, tell me!, if it's less than 2k/s it will break reactor design in an absolutely fundamental way

From this FFF:

[...]there is no limitation on the total flow through a pipeline in a given tick[...]

Looks like it was you who didn't do the reading...

No you did not, you missed the part where pumps are limited to 1200/s, 1/10th of what it was,
and go on, tell me if I'm wrong on the storage tanks, but you will still need pumps, likely as it is now, 2 pumps per tank to make full use of its capacity because that's just how the fluid mechanics work.

[Loewchen]

...but you will still need pumps, likely as it is now, 2 pumps per tank to make full use of its capacity because that's just how the fluid mechanics work.

What does the capacity of tanks have to do with needing to use pumps? You have infinite throughput without pumps. And especially for a reactor setup you can keep the steam network size easily below the 250 limit.

[Theikkru]

[...]
No you did not, you missed the part where pumps are limited to 1200/s, 1/10th of what it was,
and go on, tell me if I'm wrong on the storage tanks, but you will still need pumps, likely as it is now, 2 pumps per tank to make full use of its capacity because that's just how the fluid mechanics work.

You're still not getting it: flow within a pipe segment, which includes any tanks, NO LONGER EXISTS. The ONLY limitation to pipe segments now is the new 250×250 limit to their total areas. If you are working within that area, you can connect as many heat exchangers and turbines to the same pipe segment, (again, including tanks,) and as long as none of them are flow limited by the segment being too full or empty, (which sounds like it's a VERY loose restriction if the calculation is based off a max of 6k/s per machine,) then you need 0 pumps. 0.

[bobucles]

250x250

chunk division is 256x256

250 pipe + 2 pump = 252 length

I am in physical torment right now

[Taipion]

...but you will still need pumps, likely as it is now, 2 pumps per tank to make full use of its capacity because that's just how the fluid mechanics work.

What does the capacity of tanks have to do with needing to use pumps? You have infinite throughput without pumps. And especially for a reactor setup you can keep the steam network size easily below the 250 limit.

Ok, you probably have no experience in building efficient reactors, so let me explain this to you:

#1: to make a reactor efficient, you need to be able to buffer 1 fuel cycle, either in heat or steam, whereas steam is cheaper and gives you more control
#2: you need storage tanks to buffer steam
#3: to make full use of the storage tanks capacity, and ignore current fill lvl in the pipes and ignore fluid mechanics, you do need to use pumps, actually 2 per storage tank

[Taipion]

[...]
No you did not, you missed the part where pumps are limited to 1200/s, 1/10th of what it was,
and go on, tell me if I'm wrong on the storage tanks, but you will still need pumps, likely as it is now, 2 pumps per tank to make full use of its capacity because that's just how the fluid mechanics work.

You're still not getting it: flow within a pipe segment, which includes any tanks, NO LONGER EXISTS. The ONLY limitation to pipe segments now is the new 250×250 limit to their total areas. If you are working within that area, you can connect as many heat exchangers and turbines to the same pipe segment, (again, including tanks,) and as long as none of them are flow limited by the segment being too full or empty, (which sounds like it's a VERY loose restriction if the calculation is based off a max of 6k/s per machine,) then you need 0 pumps. 0.

see the post above for yet another explanation...

[Nagilum]

If we put multiple pumps in parallel every 250 segments, it seems like we should still be able to effectively get unlimited flow over long distances.

For example:

One pipeline splits to allow 10 pumps to be connected in parallel. The pump outlets are then merged back into to a single pipeline.

Flow throughput between segments would be
1,200 x 10 = 12,000/s and would scale linearly with the number of pumps put in parallel.

[aka13]

Let's get you all a more practical example of why limiting even pumps to 1200/s breaks reactor designs to the core!

First off: ignore water input, it was already irrelevant/trivial, no need to even talk about it, this is all about steam!

You know reactors are 5x5, and for a tile-able design we use a standard double row,
on both sides you have 2 rows of heat exchangers (2 tiles high x2 = 4 tiles height),
with 1 pipe in between them (1 tile) and 1 line of heat-pipe on top (again 1 tile, ignoring the bottom heat pipe for now),
you get a height of 2+2+1+1 = 6 tiles, so on each side you have 5 double rows of heat exchangers per 6 reactors,

as reactors get bigger, a single reactor approaches the maximum of 160mw,
but its 6:5 so you have to deal with 192mw per double row of heat exchangers,

a single heat exchanger outputs 103 units of steam per second per 10mw,
so you need 20 heat exchangers for 192mw, outputting 1977.6 units of steam per second.

If you did not pay attention up till here: 1977.6/s is actually more than 1200/s,
and breaking this apart in any other way, for an infinitely tile-able design would simply not just not work but also look extremely ugly while trying!
(Now in my reactor designs, I would consolidate 3 of those into one "half-pump-pipe" that can handle 6k/s, but ofc that is no more!)

So to make this unmistakably clear,
limiting fluids to 1200/s breaks reactor design fundamentally!

You must be out of your mind, reactors are now better then ever, because you don't need ANY pumps whatsoever.
You can chain turbines and exchangers in crazy forms without having to worry about pumps and 3k/s flow.
I was never as motivated to try out new reactor setups than now. You can feed a gadzillion heat exchangers with only one offshore pump and no other pumps whatsoever.

What are you on about?