Friday Facts #429 - Vulcanus Demolisher Enemies

[Byrnorthil]

I had another thought: are these going to be hell to fight fairly in online multiplayer?

IIRC latency hiding measures aren't applied to combat... which (if I understand) would mean you'll frequently be hit by AOEs you dodged on your screen. Which isn't fun.

If it's at all possible to apply latency hiding to these attacks, please do so.

[boran_blok]

I haven't read trough the entire thread, so sorry if this was mentioned before. But please test if the map is also usable in colorblind mode.

Only after very careful study of the map image I could discern there were apparently red stripes on areas. As someone with red-green colorblindness red stripes on a red/brown planet might as well not be there.

[Tertius]

I'm sorry to get somewhat salty, but I don't want to have real fights in Factorio.[...]

I don't think you will necessarily have to boss fight, imo, that is similar to the game terraria, where you can do the boss fight "the intended way", or you can set up automated kill zone with traps and wire and engineering. From reading the FFF Earendel mention different strategies one of them involving luring worms in specific area designed to kill them.

Now that I think about it, this is a way I proposed combat myself a few months ago. I want control over when I go to combat. No combat when I don't feel like it, and when I feel like it, I prepare for and activate combat. If cleaning the territory on Vulcanus is like this, then it's acceptable. As long as the proper weapons are available when it's necessary to expand into worm territory, and these weapons are able to take down the demolisher without me performing some kind of death dance around his ground explosions.

I'm not the person that orders and micromanages a spidertron army to clear nests. My strategy to clear nests is building stationary artillery that initially clears the area and keeps the area clean. Supplied by automated supply trains. This is how I do enemy automation. However, it's only possible late game when artillery becomes available. Too late in my opinion. If it's somehow possible to do a similar thing on Vulcanus with the demolishers, it's fine. However, it needs to be different, since once an area is cleared, it stays cleared here, which is not the case on Nauvis.

However, since I'm unable to think 2 different things at the same time (defend against enemies AND factory building), I will probably do the same thing I did for my 2nd map for 1.1: disable enemies completely to be able to fully concentrate on building mechanics and factory building. My first map I abandoned due to the enemies and not being able to find a proper weapon against them with my limited knowledge at that time. The shotgun for example was in my perception not worth the wood it contains, and I died too often to realize.

[wizcreations]

I don't understand a few things:
Why do the engineer's attacks hit behind the head and not hit the worm's face?
Why is the ground exploding 50 feet in front of the worm as it chases the engineer?

[deegeeooh]

Well, it's a pity that I cannot read anymore FF's because I don't want spoilers anymore but I'm sure it's great stuff

[sarge945]

I really like this design. I have always been of the opinion that Factorio had a very shallow combat system that was largely underutilised in the base game, because the combat was very badly designed, so you could essentially circlestrafe your way to victory and defeat the biters by attrition in a tank. The defensive gameplay had the basic design of a tower defense game, but lacked the enemy and tower variety to really make it worthwhile or interesting, and clearing out biter nests is just a total chore. The combat essentially boils down to building big enough walls and enough flame towers to become invulnerable, and either building artillery or jumping in your tank when you need to expand, so that you can tediously clear out biter nests in relative safety. It's a lot of manual effort, without offering much depth or strategy. It's a slog.

On the other hand, this seems like the perfect enemy design, it requires actual strategy and planning, rather than grind. Instead of constant annoyance, instead you get a large challenge when trying to expand, which is great.

I speculate that the true reason why so many people play with biters off (or peaceful mode on) is not that they actually don't like combat in a factory building game on the conceptual level. More likely they tried it, found it tedious, and convinced themselves that combat has no place in a factory building game after the fact, possibly without even realising it. With some better combat, more and more people should be able to play with combat turned on and have a good time, because it won't be the tedious grindfest that it is now.

The real issue on Nauvis is that the enemies are weak but numerous, so your main way to beat them is by just pumping huge amounts of resources in their general direction, and circlestrafe their attacks, and they go down after a while.

This looks like the opposite design, which can only be a good thing.

When 2.0 comes out, if the combat on Nauvis still sucks but is good elsewhere, I hope some mods can focus on fixing up Nauvis's combat. I would start by reducing the total number of biters but making them stronger (which also helps to nerf flame turrets too), and giving them movement-based abilities (like the ability to blink short distances, but not past walls) so that you can't circlestrafe them. This recontextualises Nauvis as the "dig in and hold" planet, and should make clearing biter nests much much more dangerous (but also a bit quicker as there's less actual stuff to kill) until you unlock artillery. I would also make biter nests spread much much slower, but in much larger numbers, so that given time the biters can absolutely infest an area, but you won't keep having to clear out minor nests constantly.

[TioQueToca74]

If this comes to the game this would be an immediatly loose of interest in the game for me.
I am not good at combatting at all en it removes the fun completely in my eyes..

I guess you can always disable combat

[TioQueToca74]

Looks cool, and I'm not generally a fan of biters / combat in the game right now. New enemy abilities like this will encourage me to leave enemies on when I play.

Is it me, though, or does there seem to be a lot of work left before the expansion launches in just one month? I hope they're able to finish it all up in time. I'm guessing there might be several significant patches post-launch to tweak things that don't make it for the 2.0 launch.

AFAIK, the game is already done, and they are just testing everything, and probably tuning somethings... or at least that what they said in a FFF whose number I can't remember

[Tertius]

AFAIK, the game is already done, and they are just testing everything, and probably tuning somethings... or at least that what they said in a FFF whose number I can't remember

Small adjustments in values can make a huge difference in gameplay, so the finetuning in the last days before release can have a huge impact on the perception of the game. For example, if there was an enemy who is able to one-shot the player, because it deals slightly more damage than the player's health. Now reduce the damage slightly, so it isn't a one-shot any more. This would be a small number change but a huge difference in gameplay.

[RocketManChronicles]

For some constructive feedback; here is what I propose:

1) I think this creature should go after the heavy machinery in its territory. This is the miners, the foundry, refinery, and trains. I think having it chase after trains could be interesting, but this is hard to program (I am sure).
2) I would hope that the map territories are not so obvious as what was shown. There needs to be some form of discovery to see where their territory is. I like the idea states that decoratives will show the patrol path. Flat out showing the borders of territory feels too... cheaty.
3) I love the idea of lava bursts around it as it is aggressive, what a cool implementation.
4) Please do not make them so easy in the late game. I do like having the God-mode abilities, but I still prefer challenging engagements.

[mmmPI]

2) I would hope that the map territories are not so obvious as what was shown. There needs to be some form of discovery to see where their territory is. I like the idea states that decoratives will show the patrol path. Flat out showing the borders of territory feels too... cheaty.

Given the size of the territory for a worm, you will either have super fast worm, or risk having the worm destroying what you built on the far away side of its territory 10 to 15 minutes later when it finally get there, making it really hard to know wether or not what you are building is "safe" when building.
You could think you are safe, but you expand a build and you'd only know 10 to 15 minutes later for everything ... the "discovery process" may be not-fun in those conditions.

I would love that the decoratives show the path in a more subtle way, but i think for gameplay purposes it is very important that the territory information is visible too, be it in a special mode or in map view.

[AdrianGrey]

I love the Demolishers! I was a little worried that Vulcanus was going to be uninteresting as a planet due to the relatively minimal differences in the factory gameplay compared to Nauvis, but this changes everything - the territory system and a focus on single large enemies rather than swarms of smaller ones completely changes the dynamic between the player and enemies and I think it's going to make Vulcanus gameplay really fresh and interesting (while still making it a less-complex planet ideal for your first expansion off Nauvis). Also, the design is just so damn cool.

BLESS THE MAKER AND HIS WATER

[bnrom]

I think it'd be nice if once you go beyond a certain number of territories (i.e., Demolisher's killed), the edge-most territories start having a chance of being reclaimed by Demolishers.

[Phauxstus]

I have some thoughts and suggestions on the demolisher. I really hope someone reads these posts lol.

An issue I find with the demolisher is that interacting with it isn't very dynamic, it's just black and white. Either you build in it's territory and get attacked, or you don't and you don't. Since the only reason you would build in it's territory is to kill it, the cool videos from the FFF would never actually happen except as a noob trap, getting people for not having read the FFFs or watched some youtuber's videos.

-Existing territory mechanic should be left as-is, but the the aggro trigger is changed to active buildings only. Static buildings like rails and power poles aren't deliberately targeted at all, but obviously aren't immune either.
-On generation, some of the territories don't spawn a demolisher and are free to take. These will almost always be surrounded by hostile territories. This gives you a way to expand without necessarily needing to fight, and it gives you some reason to build inside unclaimed territory- to sneak rail lines through (with elevated rails over the demolisher's trails). It also explains why the starting area is free, if you care about that.
-(Optional, this might be too difficult) While demolishers won't target rails, they will aggro on moving trains. So you have to time your transits or set up stations to wait on the demolisher to pass.
-Vibration(sound) pollution is added. This pollution is generated at a high rate by all active buildings but most of all miners and assemblers.
-All tiles consume sound pollution at a very fast and equal rate, comparable more to Nauvis trees than tiles, but without saturating and dying off. A single miner on a chunk will never generate enough pollution to spread beyond the chunk it's in. With enough buildings the pollution can spread, but each time it goes to a new chunk it also adds another 32x32 tiles to consume it. As the area spreads the returns diminish rapidly, so it can never go beyond a few chunks away from the source.
-Effectively, vibration pollution is a direct product of how many buildings you have rather than of how long you've left them running for. Turning building off will cause all the pollution to be absorbed by the chunks nearly instantly, and turning machines on will spread the pollution to it's maximum extent very quickly. I think this simulates sound pretty well.
-Demolishers on patrol will aggro if they walk into a pollution cloud and go after the source even if it's outside of their territory. This can be avoided by not building directly on the edge of their territory, building small so as to not spread the pollution too far, or by shutting parts of the factory off before the demolisher gets too close.

Adding this pollution type will introduce a more fuzzy edge to the demolisher's territories. At the same time this pollution is very controllable and predictable so will not bring new frustration. Adding free chunks behind enemy lines introduces more expansion options for combat-averse players. It will also greatly increase the total border between player and demolisher territories, increasing the area in which the new pollution can play a role.
While I can't see the code before me I believe these additions are not total rewrites of mechanics. A change in which buildings the demolisher will target, a % chance for worm spawns to fail, the old pollution mechanic with the emission and absorption values tweaked. I hope you will consider at least some of these ideas.

[meganothing]

I have some thoughts and suggestions on the demolisher. I really hope someone reads these posts lol.

An issue I find with the demolisher is that interacting with it isn't very dynamic, it's just black and white. Either you build in it's territory and get attacked, or you don't and you don't. Since the only reason you would build in it's territory is to kill it, the cool videos from the FFF would never actually happen except as a noob trap, getting people for not having read the FFFs or watched some youtuber's videos.

-Existing territory mechanic should be left as-is, but the the aggro trigger is changed to active buildings only. Static buildings like rails and power poles aren't deliberately targeted at all, but obviously aren't immune either.
-On generation, some of the territories don't spawn a demolisher and are free to take. These will almost always be surrounded by hostile territories. This gives you a way to expand without necessarily needing to fight, and it gives you some reason to build inside unclaimed territory- to sneak rail lines through (with elevated rails over the demolisher's trails). It also explains why the starting area is free, if you care about that.
-(Optional, this might be too difficult) While demolishers won't target rails, they will aggro on moving trains. So you have to time your transits or set up stations to wait on the demolisher to pass.
-Vibration(sound) pollution is added. This pollution is generated at a high rate by all active buildings but most of all miners and assemblers.
-All tiles consume sound pollution at a very fast and equal rate, comparable more to Nauvis trees than tiles, but without saturating and dying off. A single miner on a chunk will never generate enough pollution to spread beyond the chunk it's in. With enough buildings the pollution can spread, but each time it goes to a new chunk it also adds another 32x32 tiles to consume it. As the area spreads the returns diminish rapidly, so it can never go beyond a few chunks away from the source.
-Effectively, vibration pollution is a direct product of how many buildings you have rather than of how long you've left them running for. Turning building off will cause all the pollution to be absorbed by the chunks nearly instantly, and turning machines on will spread the pollution to it's maximum extent very quickly. I think this simulates sound pretty well.
-Demolishers on patrol will aggro if they walk into a pollution cloud and go after the source even if it's outside of their territory. This can be avoided by not building directly on the edge of their territory, building small so as to not spread the pollution too far, or by shutting parts of the factory off before the demolisher gets too close.

Adding this pollution type will introduce a more fuzzy edge to the demolisher's territories. At the same time this pollution is very controllable and predictable so will not bring new frustration. Adding free chunks behind enemy lines introduces more expansion options for combat-averse players. It will also greatly increase the total border between player and demolisher territories, increasing the area in which the new pollution can play a role.
While I can't see the code before me I believe these additions are not total rewrites of mechanics. A change in which buildings the demolisher will target, a % chance for worm spawns to fail, the old pollution mechanic with the emission and absorption values tweaked. I hope you will consider at least some of these ideas.

Isn't the ability to increase mining output a good reason to go into demolisher-territories?

[Phauxstus]

Isn't the ability to increase mining output a good reason to go into demolisher-territories?

I'm confused by this post. You know, you have to kill the demolisher to access the mines. Or else the thing from the FFF will happen.

[gameking459]

Well, I guess we're going to need more bug spray for this one! Really digging the new threats. Just one more month to wait!

Come to think of it... I guess it is also a good way to clear out cliffs prior to having unlcked the cliff explosives.

with that youd have to be real careful cause you cant have it too close to your base, destruction awaits you

[raven2k3]

Finally some real new enemy - Thanks a lot!!

Would be fun if normal worms can somehow evolve to a smaler version of this on nauvis and it would be really awesome if you can play agains a "real" enemy who actually claim territories/ressources.

Can you please add more parameters to the maps settings (instead of the game settings) to specify how the enemy behaves (aggression level/tactics/etc)?
I always have to add mods like rampant to make the enemy more active and
it would be nice if the vanilla enemys can be set more agressively (like in the wave defence mode) if a a player like this
proactive style of game.

There should be also some tiered walls, since passive defence structures don't evolve like turrets do and
an vanilla option to disable damage for rails/belts/power poles because this isn't fun to repair.

Thanks for the hard work!

[Junorus]

I would love an option for worms slowly growing/expanding territory (maybe not to starting area) to empty space and dividing once reaching size too big for a distance from centre arena.

It would also be cool to have different enemies fight with other (like planet where all of them can be) or to have possibility to catch them to to move them to other planets... probably not doable with different pollutions system.

[GregoriusT]

Honestly, I really hope Modders can add the Territory mechanic to Nauvis, because that would make Biter Expansions much more interesting. They would still act by Pollution hitting them, but if the Biter Expansions Mechanic uses Territories instead of Chunks, it would give them a bit more Character and a slight amount of more predictability, without them expanding their Nest density so much (which is basically a failed expansion).