Friday Facts #387 - Swimming in lava

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mmmPI
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Re: Friday Facts #387 - Swimming in lava

Post by mmmPI »

FuryoftheStars wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2024 5:32 am
To top that off, with the exception of the starting area (which by nature of starting with nothing and having to work your way up you'll typically be working manually with the starter fields anyway), mixed patches are actually very rare in vanilla.

None of these reasons, to me at least, make for strong convincing arguments to support the idea of adding a filter to miners. The fact that the new miners are bigger and have a bigger mining area doesn't change any of that.
To me either, not even the starting patches, because we are talking about the big mining drills which you probably won't have access to before those are depleted, by that time you should have researched splitters. And that's all you need to solve the puzzle.

Adding filters to mining isn't going to solve the "problem" of managing the output of a mixed mining drill, as it only delay the moment when it will require manual intervention. It forces 1 to be necessary when changing the filter when one of the ore is depleted, maybe more if you have to change the filter twice if you have 2 ores under the drill.

Whereas you can already automate the distribution of ore from mixed-ore-sources with priority over ore from regular sources without requiring human intervention until the mining is depleted, which is part of the game. Giving an incentive to suboptimal method i think would be detrimental. The game is already trying to tell the player how to deal with byproduct on Vulcanus : you can throw things into lava !

If you have a mixed-ouput source, (like a mining drill or also the foundry creating copper AND iron ) that stall because you don't need one of the output that is blocking the other you do need, you can just throw some of the not required away. Vulcanus seems a more forgiving planet for players that struggle with byproducts than Fulgora. I think Vulcanus can be like a learning experience.

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Re: Friday Facts #387 - Swimming in lava

Post by XT-248 »

FuryoftheStars wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2024 5:32 am
*snipped*

If you're only running one mining operation per resource at a time, then you're setting yourself up for failure.

*snipped*
A substantive off-base assumption hinges on a mistaken impression of how I play Factorio.

I play on a large scale, enough to have multiple back-to-back rocket silo simultaneous launches.

I would love to have all the time in the world to build mining outposts tediously one by one to support a late-game base. I do not have the incline nor time to do so. I don't think anyone does.


Please don't take this the wrong way. This will not be the first time anyone has made a flawed assumption based on a flawed impression. I have a strong feeling that it will not be the last time.



XT-248 wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2024 1:21 pm
A green belt fully stacked from Vulcanis Big Miners mixed patch (eww, a nightmare scenario to fix).
I am re-posting this quotation because the salient point I implied has been left behind.

Imagine a megabase whose size and number of logistics (belt/train/bots) and the numbers of mining outposts are colossal.

A remote outpost that was set incorrectly (it doesn't matter why or how, only that it did happen) and managed to clog thousands of convey belts with wrong-ore, which eventually ended up being everywhere they shouldn't be.

Regardless of whether one finds the logistic puzzle fun, they will not enjoy gathering wrong-type and right-type content from the logistic system for their factory. Then temporarily store it somewhere to eventually be re-injected back into the right spots logistics-wise.

The fact that Vulcanis Big Miner mines faster without bonus, has a sizeable reach, and can pre-stack output, only emphasizes the importance of getting it right in the first place more, not less.


Adding a filter to miners will not remove the logistic puzzle of moving the ore to the smelting array and solving the mixed belts before they become an issue. It is not a question of when one should manually intervene to fix mixed ore but preventing a tedious, unfun aspect of Factorio: purging logistics.


I have been fortunate to avoid this kind of headache so far, and it is not unheard of for veteran Factorio players to stumble into a situation where they must purge their logistic bus and post screenshots on Reddit.


FuryoftheStars wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2024 5:32 am
*snipped*

To top that off, with the exception of the starting area (which by nature of starting with nothing and having to work your way up you'll typically be working manually with the starter fields anyway), mixed patches are actually very rare in vanilla.

None of these reasons, to me at least, make for strong convincing arguments to support the idea of adding a filter to miners. The fact that the new miners are bigger and have a bigger mining area doesn't change any of that.
Just because mixed ore patches are rare in the 'default' setting doesn't mean they can't become a problem in 'default' and other map configurations equally.

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Re: Friday Facts #387 - Swimming in lava

Post by mmmPI »

[Moderated by Koub : Off topic]

I think it was on topic to refers to the times it was questionned wether or not mixed item can even stack. Which was not seen in any pictures so far, and seem like a flawed impression to me, which was term used by the person i was adressing this remark.

I think it was also on topic to mention that adding filter to mining drills is not making them immune to miss-configuration or player mistake if that is the cause for the need to purge logistic then the suggestion is not adressing the problem in a more robust way than current existing system.

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Re: Friday Facts #387 - Swimming in lava

Post by Skellitor301 »

The thing that I notice most about this topic is most people who are against the idea of a filter on miners is missing a few key points. For one, if you like the challenge, good for you, this is not a problem for you. Not everyone likes to play and have to deal with tedium as part of the challenge and it would seem that part of what Wube has been doing lately is fixing tedium in the existing systems. Two, there are people who just don't like to deal with mixed or touching ore patches because it's tedious to deal with and usually people at that stage would largely just ignore the patch and go to a different patch. This is not a good thing if you're out looking for ore and have to pick and choose which ones you want based on how tedious it would be to set up sorting. Three, the biggest issue with dealing with mixed ore mining is the fact that given time you will either fill up the belts with ore you are using less of, causing a backup of underused ore while the ore you want to use is held up by said ore, or the more usable ore dries up and you're left with a backlog of lesser used ore. Again, if you like that challenge, great, I do not and I find that annoying to have to wonder why my iron stopped and I find that the iron is blocked by coal or stone in the bits of the mines that still got ore. It makes having to deal with that issue not worth fixing for the last few bits of iron left in the mine, so you just remove the mine and/or go to another ore patch. Having to leave behind resources based purely on avoiding tedium is a bad problem to have. Some people might disagree, others like me who play railworld sometimes, find that irritating when ores are so far away and you gotta fight through nests, go around water, cliffs, trees, etc to find the next patch. Sometimes you gotta contemplate if it's worth trying to navigate an irritating resource node over just going to find another. These are all issues, and if you like dealing with those issues, good for you, this is not an issue that concerns you. I do not like to have to deal with the occasional touching ore patches. I do not like to deal with sorting out mixed ore lines. I do not like to have to find bandaid solutions to issues like backed up useless/underused ores like belt buffers just for a resource I am not going to be using as much of. I do not like to weigh the odds on dealing with touching ore patches vs hunting down the next one miles away though biter infested water broken terrain. I am sure there are others who also do not like to deal with these issues to, as there are ones who do like to deal with this. I do not. I just want to get the resources back to base and not have to drive 10 miles to fix my mines when crap gets backed up. I like to build and make efficient factories, not deal with inefficient mines cause of a trickle of dirt slowly clogs my lines. Tedium is not interesting, it's annoying.

Oh, also final point to this. Best part about a filter on a miner: You do not have to use it if you like the challenge. No one will be forcing you to use a filter, even the changes with the inserter filters will still work the same way, in that you do not have to set a filter for the inserter to just work. So if no one will force you to use a filter, why would you advocate forcing people who do not like that kind of "challenge" to have to deal with that?

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Re: Friday Facts #387 - Swimming in lava

Post by FuryoftheStars »

Skellitor301 wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2024 12:04 am
The thing that I notice most about this topic is most people who are against the idea of a filter on miners is missing a few key points.
All of your "key points" have been covered ad nasium. Nothing of what you said is new or was "missed". And the moderators have already made a statement of the discussion being off-topic.
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Re: Friday Facts #387 - Swimming in lava

Post by Skellitor301 »

FuryoftheStars wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:13 am
Skellitor301 wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2024 12:04 am
The thing that I notice most about this topic is most people who are against the idea of a filter on miners is missing a few key points.
All of your "key points" have been covered ad nasium. Nothing of what you said is new or was "missed". And the moderators have already made a statement of the discussion being off-topic.
Not all, there was a lot of discussion about things that were mentioned but then ignored, but I get your point. Essentially it comes down to playstyle and how it can affect everyone.

Going back to my initial post, since Wube is doing a round of qol, I'd still like to suggest adding a filter to miners. The vulkan miner at the very least considering it's larger area. It doesn't take away from any challenge since it'd be an optional feature and it allows people more freedom to build and deal with less frustrations.

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Re: Friday Facts #387 - Swimming in lava

Post by Qon »

Skellitor301 wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2024 10:19 pm
It doesn't take away from any challenge since it'd be an optional feature
Wrong.

I'm not against filters on miners, but what you wrote is hilariously wrong. Of course you have the option to do an self-imposed challenge run, but that doesn't mean the regular experience isn't made easier by tools that circumvent challenges. With your definition of challenge no gameplay balancing is possible.
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Re: Friday Facts #387 - Swimming in lava

Post by Skellitor301 »

[Moderated by Koub : Off topic.]
Talking about the actual content announced in the FFF is OK, if things keep coming back to off topic fights between a handful of people, the thread will be locked.


Response:
Sorry it keeps getting off topic, I just wanted to offer a suggestion to fix a potential gameplay issue some people would have, hence why I brought up the filtering of the higher tier miner. I've said my peace on it, I hope that the idea isn't soured because of how vocal people are about an optional feature request. I still stand on the idea that adding an ore filter to the higher tier miner would be a necessity if the mining area is going to expand like that. The larger area makes the placement more of an issue if you have touching ores and some people, like myself, do not like touching ore patches for this reason. It makes mining out the patches tedious, especially when one ore is used less than the other and you need a buffer large enough to handle the excess or you're stuck with backed up mining lines. Please keep in mind, this all is about the content announced in the FFF specifically the new tier of miner, and a suggested QoL request to the devs.
Last edited by Skellitor301 on Wed Apr 10, 2024 1:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Friday Facts #387 - Swimming in lava

Post by mmmPI »

[Moderated by Koub : Follow up on an off topic post.]
Talking about the actual content announced in the FFF is OK, if things keep coming back to off topic fights between a handful of people, the thread will be locked.
Last edited by mmmPI on Sat Apr 06, 2024 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Friday Facts #387 - Swimming in lava

Post by Qon »

[Moderated by Koub : Follow up on an off topic post.]
Talking about the actual content announced in the FFF is OK, if things keep coming back to off topic fights between a handful of people, the thread will be locked.
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Re: Friday Facts #387 - Swimming in lava

Post by FuryoftheStars »

[Moderated by Koub : Follow up on an off topic post.]
Talking about the actual content announced in the FFF is OK, if things keep coming back to off topic fights between a handful of people, the thread will be locked.
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Re: Friday Facts #387 - Swimming in lava

Post by Jarin »

Earendel wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2023 5:03 pm
Jarin wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2023 4:24 pm
If an intermediate is only ever used for one thing then perhaps it should be more useful or be removed
You have no idea how much of a relief it is to read these words. This was my single biggest frustration when trying to play Space Exploration (unique single-use buildings that make unique single-use items for science), and the thing that put me off continuing my playthrough of it.
It's funny because I wrote that line. SE will get the same treatment eventually.
Long after the fact, because I never check my notifications, apparently, but... \o/

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Re: Friday Facts #387 - Swimming in lava

Post by bnrom »

What is the relative value going to be of producing copper cable directly with the Foundry from molten copper, compared to making plates from molten copper, and then converting those plates to cable via the electromagnetic plant?

With the electromagnetic plant able to make copper cable too (and get up to 175% productivity bonus - 50 innate, and then 5 modules), you potentially get 2.75 the base amounts of cable from plates (e.g., 5.5 wires per plate). Is the Foundry cable recipe going to give 5.5 times or more the amount of cable as you get plates? Either way seems fine, I'm just curious!

I am also wondering, am I right that the Foundry can't make gears from plates? Hence, the best machine for that particular conversion remains a Assembling machine 3 (e.g., max 100 prod).

Fyi, both the Foundry and the Big mining drill look and sound fantastic, as - to be honest - does all of space age!

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