Train Lines and global filters

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OBAMA MCLAMA
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Train Lines and global filters

Post by OBAMA MCLAMA » Sun Jan 04, 2015 7:06 am

The idea comes from my time playing simutrans, And wanting to organize my trains in factorio easier. Like adding that new iron outpost without directly going to every iron train and changing their schedule.

I believe this feature to be most useful for trains, and easier to understand. So i will explain it for the trains first.

Instead of waiting at your iron unload waiting for the trains to come to change their schedule, The ability to create "lines" that hold the routes for the trains seems like a easy choice.
(Create a line, give it a schedule and a name, Tell the train to follow that line and any time the line is changed, the trains also get changed)
Either a train station hub building you click on, Or a hotkey like P, Open up and it has something exactly like the schedule window for the trains, Except with a name on it.

Create a new "line" and name it "Iron East Line", tell it to go to 5 stops and close it. Open up a train and tell its schedule to follow the line "Iron East Line"
Now go back and edit the line, and you will see 1 trains are on its line, If you edit it, every train on that line gets updated also. (probably on its next station stop)


This feature can be carried over as a global filter for items like smart inserters. An easy way to change the max amount of lasers your factory should produce, is by changing the global filter. That way you don't need to run to the far end of your enormous factory, to change 50 smart inserters (i know, copy-paste and why 50 for lasers?.. example)
global filter can just be a name, a item, and an amount. You can use it on all 3 red/green and logistics network filters.
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Garm
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Re: Train Lines and global filters

Post by Garm » Sun Jan 04, 2015 8:47 am

Frankly I am not sure lines are needed. Trains that need to be eventually changed usually have only 2 stations in the schedule (ore trains). Rest are usually set and forget. And ore trains are easy to change: removing the ore station will force them to idle at unloading station where player can easily access them.

Another thing - this feels more fit for strategy simulator (god game-type), and not 1st person isometric factorio.

Counter-suggestions

- Copy-paste train routes similarly to chests, inserters, and assemblers

- Add "Pull" ability to trainstop - probably by making it count as 0 in terms of distance for pathing. Forcing all trains that have particular trainstop in their route to go to this specific station instead of their usual one.

- Add "Stop" ability to signals.

Reasons:

- feels more natural to current game design (player-focused instead of "god"-focused)
- has additional uses beyond obvious ones.
- easier to implement.
- fit for 0.12

Pull
- Call taxi system with player requesting specific trains to arrive near him.
- automated response to ore depletion (mine run out - send all trains to train depot automatically)
- More flexible stations (better train routing than "nearest possible 2 signals ahead") these who built multiple track stations will understand.

Stop
- with hinted player detection in 0.12 - automated safe crossings forcing trains to avoid or stop where player is pathing through.
- automated biter response grinding trains.
- track priority (this is huge)

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ssilk
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Re: Train Lines and global filters

Post by ssilk » Sun Jan 04, 2015 2:09 pm

I think the routes is for me no question.

Think about, if one outpost is depleted and you have three trains for it: every train needs to be reprogrammed. That means currently: you need to find the train and that may take a while...

And due to my experiments I can say per sure: managing more than 10 trains needs some help. The Fat Controller mod (https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... =14&t=4504) is a great help, but I don't like to micromanage the trains, the logical next step for this mod is also to have routes added...

And perhaps I'm a bit "out of scope" with my current world; over 10000 tiles in diameter, 40+ trains, over 50000 resources per minute... But this problem appears also with much smaller factories.

I like also the idea of named filters, cause the next great thing would be named blueprints, containing just a filter. And the next is to have "programs". And so on. (Don't like to explain it now in detail, cause I don't thought it to the end) :)
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Re: Train Lines and global filters

Post by Garm » Sun Jan 04, 2015 2:49 pm

ssilk wrote: Think about, if one outpost is depleted and you have three trains for it: every train needs to be reprogrammed. That means currently: you need to find the train and that may take a while...
Not really - just by removing ore station you just forced all three trains to idle at unloading station (since usually ore trains only have 2 stations in the schedule and by removing one they will just idle at the other)
ssilk wrote: And perhaps I'm a bit "out of scope" with my current world; over 10000 tiles in diameter, 40+ trains, over 50000 resources per minute... But this problem appears also with much smaller factories.
How often you have more than two-three trains working at same route?

My bases have not only multitude of average 1+4 trains but humongous freight trains, and i still find myself setting up different schedules for each train for only few have same schedules.

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Re: Train Lines and global filters

Post by ssilk » Sun Jan 04, 2015 4:16 pm

Garm wrote:How often you have more than two-three trains working at same route?
That's not the point. The point is, I want to see all routes and how many trains are working on it and where they currently are. Did I forget one route? Is there a deadlock? Does all trains have a valid target, is there no route? Have biters eaten an important train route? Does some route need to have more or less trains? Do I need more rails? How much are the train filled?

And so on. Parts of that can be seen in the big controller mod. But see OpenTTD how this might look in the end.
My bases have not only multitude of average 1+4 trains but humongous freight trains, and i still find myself setting up different schedules for each train for only few have same schedules.
But that it works for you must not mean, that it will work for others. :)
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Re: Train Lines and global filters

Post by Garm » Sun Jan 04, 2015 4:26 pm

ssilk wrote: But see OpenTTD how this might look in the end.
But thats the point: This is NOT OTTD, this is Factorio.


OTTD is a god-game train simulator - where player operates from above.

Factorio is Factory-simulation game with player being bound to 1 body ingame.

As such I understand that current desing is not perfect, but it should be resolved in Factorio fashion, not in OTTD fashion.

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Re: Train Lines and global filters

Post by Choumiko » Sun Jan 04, 2015 5:08 pm

Garm wrote:OTTD is a god-game train simulator - where player operates from above.

Factorio is Factory-simulation game with player being bound to 1 body ingame.

As such I understand that current desing is not perfect, but it should be resolved in Factorio fashion, not in OTTD fashion.
To differentiation between god-game/"1 body game" doesn't make sense to me at least in that aspect. As i see it (concerning only Factorio) it wouldn't make any difference if i was in some sort of god-mode with inventory while building bases/managing trains. When fighting this is a whole other story i know.
I think i get your point to a certain degree, but how about:
Train UI stays as it is now + Option/Button to switch to Line mode, there you manage your lines.
It doesn't really change anything, it's more a change in terminology as the trains would still do the same.
As i see it the suggestion is merely: Add Train lines which are a "container" for schedules.

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Re: Train Lines and global filters

Post by OBAMA MCLAMA » Sun Jan 04, 2015 6:20 pm

when you play with rso mod, or low frequency ore, Your train network gets quite long.

For me, it requires at least 4 trains (4 cargo) for a single outpost, so my base can have a stable iron production. And that is because the outpost is sooo far away.
To add the, as Choumiko said, The container, You have to go to the train itself to set its Container.

I'm just not seeing this "god game" thing you are talking about, Think of it like a relay station or the tower at the airport telling every plane what to do how to do it and when.
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