Inserters: Why are filters getting baked in, but stacks are separated?

[LackadaisyFrog]

TL;DR

I would like clarification on why filter inserters are being removed and filter functionality added to all other inserters, but stacks aren't being added to those same inserters and instead require a different inserter. I feel both filtering and stacking could be a technology unlock, and the tiers of inserters would be preserved by fast inserters already being faster and bulk inserters being able to stack more.

What ?

The tech tree for inserters is straightforward in all cases.
Pre-2.0 Inserters Tiers (not necessarily research):
Burner->Electric/Long<Fast/Filter<Stack/Filter Stack
Possible Post-2.0 Inserters, as I understand it Tiers (not necessarily research), per FFF#393:
Burner<Electric/Long<Fast<Stack<Bulk
with Filtering on all types for free
I might be mistaken about the filtering being free and it might be a research, but that's irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make, as I'm less concerned with how the tech tree works than with how the inserters function after everything is researched.

My suggestion is this:
If filtering is able to be turned on or off for each inserter, why not also have stacking simply also be a toggle for each inserter instead of a new object. The FFF#393 mentions the stack size being unwieldy, but perhaps switching on stacking could reduce the maximum stack size while stacking is on.

Why ?

It seems strange to bake filtering into all inserters because it makes everything better and less bloated, and in the same FFF introduce a new inserter with a feature that itself would be useful as a feature on all inserters. In FFF#393, the post goes so far as to give reasons for giving all inserters filters as

• "In the context of Space Age, it is common that you send both types of inserters to the space platform while now you'll be fine with just one. On top of that, some of the asteroid processing and related recipes were hitting the 1 filter maximum of the stack filter inserter.

• It can also be really convenient to be able to set filters on long handed inserters."[\list]
  And in the very next sentence say "This frees up purple and white from inserter colors, so I could use the new inserter shapes and paint them white."
  
  With the increased capacity of bulk inserters (16 vs. stack inserters at 12) but the increased functionality of stack inserters, wouldn't it still be the case that Space Age will still have us sending up both types of inserters? You stated earlier in the post, they have slightly different use cases. Also, would long inserters not still be useful if you could make them stack?

[CyberCider]

The way I see it, it’s because of the new stack inserters’ special place as an alien planet’s unlock. They have to be made with a new material on that planet, and then shipped through space to the other planets to be used in builds. Just like the other new buildings. To use the new mechanics, you not only have to research a tech, but also craft the new recipe with the new material and connect the interplanetary logistics.

[LackadaisyFrog]

Besides the conclusion of FFF#393 stating that Bulk inserters will be from a new planet, there doesn't seem to be anything about how the stacking technology will be unlocked. The post seems to imply that the base game will be keeping stack inserters and be able to research stacking with the Stack inserter having a capacity of 12, and then Space Age will have a planet research for Bulk inserters which seem to do less stacking but have more capacity at 16. This keeps the current functionality in the base game (where the old best inserters had a max capacity of 12) while giving them stacking, but puts the needed throughput enhancements in the DLC where they belong.

I have no problem with this, and, again, this isn't about research or tech order or planet-locking. My suggestion here is, instead of having Bulk inserters that can carry 16, why not instead have the new material on the new planet be used to research higher capacity for all inserters, including the stack inserter, but have stacking be toggled on every inserter and having it puts a hard limit on the capacity of an inserter.

This way, there's one entity filling both the role of stacking belts and the role of getting better throughput that has its role dynamically determined by the player, who must learn how best to utilize this tradeoff, instead of taking up an extra inventory slot for the same decision-making process as the current normal stack instead vs filter stack inserter placement.

[Loewchen]

Besides the conclusion of FFF#393 stating that Bulk inserters will be from a new planet, there doesn't seem to be anything about how the stacking technology will be unlocked. The post seems to imply that the base game will be keeping stack inserters and be able to research stacking with the Stack inserter having a capacity of 12, and then Space Age will have a planet research for Bulk inserters which seem to do less stacking but have more capacity at 16. This keeps the current functionality in the base game (where the old best inserters had a max capacity of 12) while giving them stacking, but puts the needed throughput enhancements in the DLC where they belong.

I have no problem with this, and, again, this isn't about research or tech order or planet-locking.

You need to read up on the updated info in the comments.

• The current Stack inserter will be renamed to Bulk inserter.
• The new inserter will be named Stack inserter.
• The Stack inserter will be the only inserter able to stack items on top of each other.
• The stack height has to be unlocked step by step with research up to a maximum of +3.
• The maximum hand size of the Bulk new Stack inserter will be 16.

[LackadaisyFrog]

You need to read up on the updated info in the comments.

• The current Stack inserter will be renamed to Bulk inserter.
• The new inserter will be named Stack inserter.
• The Stack inserter will be the only inserter able to stack items on top of each other.
• The stack height has to be unlocked step by step with research up to a maximum of +3.
• The maximum hand size of the Bulk inserter will be 16.

I do remember reading clarifications and update for this some time ago, but couldn't find them when researching for this post. Could you link to the updated information? I still can't seem to find any updates on this.

However, I was aware of all the information you stated here. The name change, research iteration, and increased capacity of the newly minted Bulk inserter are not an issue for me.

I am taking particular umbrage with the second and third bullet points:

• The new inserter will be named Stack inserter.
• The Stack inserter will be the only inserter able to stack items on top of each other.

• Why remove Filter Bulk (formerly stack) inserters because it's better to launch one item instead of two just to replace them with the new Stack inserter, reintroducing the need to launch two things instead of one?
• Why will only this special inserter have this new function when the removed inserters used to be the special inserter with a special function that's now being rolled into all the old inserters? Why not just have the research add stacking to the existing inserters instead of making a new entity?

[LackadaisyFrog]

Let me be more explicit:
Inserters which are clearly NOT the new stack inserter are shown both picking up FROM stacks on belts and then also HOLDING stacks in their hand, just not PLACING stacks.

Why not?

The usefulness of stacking is placing those stacks on belts (or the ground). I don't think assemblers or chests care about whether an inserter that is placing into them is capable of stacking. Then the clear use-cases follow:

• the newly minted "bulk inserters" with a capacity of 16 taking FROM belts to put into non-belt things,
• and the newly created "stack inserters" with a capacity of 12 to take from anything and place it onto a belt.

Why? Why not have every inserter be capable of stacking after you research stacking, have the highest tier of inserter's capacity get up to 16, and then the highest tier has its capacity reduced if you toggle stacking on?

This way a player can

• figure out their ideal throughput configuration once before putting it in a blueprint and moving on to other things,
• have one fewer types of inserters on hand at all times to use their blueprints spontaneously,
• and have the blueprint remember the stack settings like it remembers circuit network or stack size settings.

Everybody wins and the game progression doesn't have to change from whatever is already planned.

[Loewchen]

the newly created "stack inserters" with a capacity of 12

What is that "capacity"? Hand size or stack size?

[LackadaisyFrog]

What is that "capacity"? Hand size or stack size?

Hand size.

The stack size appears to be related to belts through a different research, as detailed in the sources we are both drawing from. I have been talking about inserters, so any mention of "capacity" by me in this thread is always about hand size.

[Loewchen]

Now I mixed up the names, the new Stack inserter will have max 16 hand size, the bulk one will stay at 12.

[Rseding91]

The why: because that’s how we decided to implement the features and progression.

[LackadaisyFrog]

Now I mixed up the names, the new Stack inserter will have max 16 hand size, the bulk one will stay at 12.

Name changes are confusing for everyone, and I appreciate your clarification. However, I believe hand size and the names of the inserters are of no direct consequence to my questions or suggestions.

[LackadaisyFrog]

The why: because that’s how we decided to implement the features and progression.

Truly an unassailable position. I will not desist, but I do recognize that I am not a member of the team.

Why have a suggestions board if the ideas you already have are the correct ones?

[Koub]

That's the issue with people suggesting ameliorations for things they haven't even tried : The devs have played continuously what they were designing along the development process, selecting what felt best for the game. And while we can get a few glimpses of this in the FFFs, this backoffice process was continuous for years.

What I understood with that FFF on inserters is that the dev team came to the conclusion that all inserters getting filtering ability, but being able to progress on throughput - both just the inserter and the inserter/belt - was the best option.

[Panzerknacker]

I don't like that all inserters can filter, simply doesn't make sense.

[Nosferatu]

Also: They have committed to a release date.
Now is not the time to look for ideas in the suggestions board.
They are probably working through their ToDo list and won't change anything else unless they notice something big.

Ideas will be revisited - later

[CyberCider]

I don't like that all inserters can filter, simply doesn't make sense.

Tbf, the way inserters work is already pretty esoteric. For example, burner inserters can already “filter” in a way because they can tell fuel items apart from other items. And they’re not even electric

[LackadaisyFrog]

Also: They have committed to a release date.
Now is not the time to look for ideas in the suggestions board.
They are probably working through their ToDo list and won't change anything else unless they notice something big.

Ideas will be revisited - later

I have no expectation of a timetable or release schedule.

[LackadaisyFrog]

That's the issue with people suggesting ameliorations for things they haven't even tried : The devs have played continuously what they were designing along the development process, selecting what felt best for the game. And while we can get a few glimpses of this in the FFFs, this backoffice process was continuous for years.

What I understood with that FFF on inserters is that the dev team came to the conclusion that all inserters getting filtering ability, but being able to progress on throughput - both just the inserter and the inserter/belt - was the best option.

You may be right, and I will admit that the reality of their intended implementation for 2.0 on this topic is unavailable to me. In the meantime, I can only do my best with what I have. I believe that, right now, that best is to make suggestions and ask questions.

[Qon]

All inserters have always had an automatic filter to the target containers item types already. And the filter variant is pretty similar to the regular i price etc. You could just use filter variant always, the issue was just that filter inserters had to be configured to do anything.

Stack placing inserters are adding a big throughput advantage that fits the limitation of only wirking for the high tech variant.

[Loewchen]

The obvious reason is that with quality and spoilage need for filtering will be prevalent and limiting it to only some inserters will be an annoyance instead of a challenge.
Stacking on the other hand is incredibly powerful and limiting it to only special machines is keeping it in check.

The metric for any feature should be if it creates for interesting/fun/challenging gameplay not some generally logic or consistency.