Friday Facts #417 - Space Age development

[KillingTimeItself]

oh boy, this is a rather eventful post. Excited for the new train logistics, having more options is always nice, and since we're on the topic, it makes sense to me that the molten metals would have a substantially higher throughput of trains, which would mean even without the increase in space efficiency it would still move way more material, though it would require substantially more trains, so i'm not surprised by that.

Also molten metal is substantially more space efficient, if like me you enjoy some freight hopping, you'll know that most wagons are about 50% full in terms of volume. Processed materials are loaded in covered wagons, likely in shipping condition, so on pallets, and wrapped in plastic or whatever, the likelihood they just stuff ingots of iron into a train and send it off these days is low. Though im sure wet wagons (for lack of finding a better term, this one is funnier anyways) also have a fill level, i'm guessing it's more like 80% another reason could be the way that plates are loaded and stored, or ore for example is simply inefficient to begin with. (although it doesn't fully explain why ore and plants stack differently in trains, considering that it's the same amount of material going into the furnace, and then coming out of it again, or how steel somehow eats up 5x the iron) The inserters are automated and there's a non zero chance they just, don't fill in all the space.

It'll be interesting to see what happens with the fluid system though. I suspect it's not the final variation of the system as a whole though. Wouldn't surprise me to see it change before release, or shortly after. Though i'm curious about whether or not someone at wube is bothered by the lack of steam expansion :)

from what i understand the water to steam pipeline is incredibly cursed and highly illegal, or that it used to be? No clue, i don't follow that closely, but the 1:1 exchange of water for steam i find to be rather silly. That would certainly make for an interesting QOL update in the future, though it might upset the balance of the universe in regards to boilers and steam engines.

[L-ong]

I had a question after watching #381. Why can't we just put the extra stuff or waste we produce into the booster? Perform a brief vortex acceleration and cause a slight change in the color of the flame for a short period of time. Feeding too many discarded items can damage the booster. So I have a new idea, add a melting machine, put unwanted items into the output of different amounts of mixed liquid (considering the compatibility of moDs, maybe only one liquid can be produced, no matter what is put in), this mixed solution can be fed into the booster, for a short acceleration and a short flame change. This mechanic doesn't look useful, but I think it's fun and has a high-tech feel.

[Inscius]

Why? Molten metals are being transported from the smelter to the foundry with trains in the real world all the time, sometimes over distances of several hundred kilometers because it's more energy efficient to keep the metal hot rather than remelt it at the foundry. Modern torpedo or bottle wagons (named after their shape) can keep their contents hot for 30 hours or more, a train can cover quite some distance in that time. Some lower melting metals (eg. aluminium) are even transported on public roads in molten form.

In part that molten metals can be kept in that state indefinitely, but it's mostly the notion that melting the metal down somehow makes a train able to carry more of it that I find nonsensical.

While the idea if doing this in regular Fluid-Wagons instead of dedicated torpedo-wagons makes me a bit uneven, the notion of this being more space efficient makes sense to me. After all the molten metal can fill the entire volume, while the plates have air in between them, maybe even some cargo-wagon structure to make extraction by inserters easier.

wait dont solid materials expand when they get turned into liquid? pretty sure that is the case for everything that doesn't crystallize a certain way (like water/ice does)

For Iron the thermal expansion coefficient is 11.8 * 10^-6 per Kelvin. Now I'm no expert in material science, but this sounds pretty low, even if you multiply it with the temperaturedifference of 2000K between room temperature and molten Iron. At least it sounds low enough that it does not counter the effect of removing all the air gaps from the solid plates.

Molten metals may very well be more space efficient, though we should also consider that the tank wagon probably has a smaller internal volume than the cargo wagon. But all of that is a moot point since it's weight, not volume, that tends to be the limiting factor when transporting metals.

The implication I read from fluid wagons carrying more metals than cargo wagons is that melting metals makes them lighter, and that triggers my nonsense-detector. Though, like I said in my original post, it's pretty arbitrary that this bothers me and many of the other weirdnesses of factorio don't.

[Sciencefreak]

The main problem was that in the last day, we weren't able to continue the multiplayer with everyone connected while having 60 UPS, we had to slow the game to 85% speed for everyone's computer being able to keep up.

Can you give any numbers of how crazy you went in this play through and any specs of the struggling hardware (are we talking about a 5 year old ULV CPU or some decent new hardware?)

[Woody]

I love these kind of posts on the development. It is one aspect why I like Wube more than any other developer. If you would write a book that is just the retelling of the Factorio development, with fun anecdotes from the day to day life in the studio and theretical thoughts on game design and development, I would immediately buy it.

[aka13]

Molten metals may very well be more space efficient, though we should also consider that the tank wagon probably has a smaller internal volume than the cargo wagon. But all of that is a moot point since it's weight, not volume, that tends to be the limiting factor when transporting metals.

The implication I read from fluid wagons carrying more metals than cargo wagons is that melting metals makes them lighter, and that triggers my nonsense-detector. Though, like I said in my original post, it's pretty arbitrary that this bothers me and many of the other weirdnesses of factorio don't.

My trains are going 300kmh on turn radii where I would be afraid to turn on a motorbike

[Inscius]

My trains are going 300kmh on turn radii where I would be afraid to turn on a motorbike

To add to the realism, Wube should make it so that some molten metal spills out when trains take turns like that.

[steinio]

My trains are going 300kmh on turn radii where I would be afraid to turn on a motorbike

To add to the realism, Wube should make it so that some molten metal spills out when trains take turns like that.

Molten metal for flame thrower turrets ftw

[Hellfie]

imo fully cemented temporary elevated rails looked a lot better, less detailed ill admit but very good looking for a concept. id rather have those

[spinba11]

man this is going to feel like the longest week ever waiting for the release date to drop

You are incorrect, the longest week will be the week before release.

[ombus]

Man.. i know its super unlikely but i so want for them to reveal the release date next week and put the pre-order up and those who pre-order get 2.0 right there... one can dream..

[mcmase]

The main problem was that in the last day, we weren't able to continue the multiplayer with everyone connected while having 60 UPS, we had to slow the game to 85% speed for everyone's computer being able to keep up.

Can you give any numbers of how crazy you went in this play through and any specs of the struggling hardware (are we talking about a 5 year old ULV CPU or some decent new hardware?)

I would also be interested in this... typically I would expect the devs to be playing on some decent hardware, so I hope these optimizations come through strong! Though I'm not sure the difference in single- and multi-player as I usually go solo, maybe I have no reason to be concerned then.

[Terrahertz]

For Iron the thermal expansion coefficient is 11.8 * 10^-6 per Kelvin. Now I'm no expert in material science, but this sounds pretty low, even if you multiply it with the temperaturedifference of 2000K between room temperature and molten Iron. At least it sounds low enough that it does not counter the effect of removing all the air gaps from the solid plates.

Molten metals may very well be more space efficient, though we should also consider that the tank wagon probably has a smaller internal volume than the cargo wagon. But all of that is a moot point since it's weight, not volume, that tends to be the limiting factor when transporting metals.

The implication I read from fluid wagons carrying more metals than cargo wagons is that melting metals makes them lighter, and that triggers my nonsense-detector. Though, like I said in my original post, it's pretty arbitrary that this bothers me and many of the other weirdnesses of factorio don't.

Well as far as I remember the original fluid wagon was twice as heavy as the cargo wagon. That aside what's transported at the moment has no influence on the weight of the train. So I would'nt be to annoyed about that.

[inteljoe]

Which we will tell you next week

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...tease

[Shuisman]

And look at the reach of those legendary medium electric poles

[mas]

can't wait space age !!
I want to know these major updates will work on my laptop

[GregoriusT]

And look at the reach of those legendary medium electric poles

Just wait what you can do earlygame with quality wooden power poles! There is a good use for wasting surplus wood to save on iron now!

[gGeorg]

Kovarex's own base has One milion SPM, now it makes sense why they cut out fluids mechanic.
It looks like target for expansion is stamping blueprints into unconscious.
Also the screenshot of field of space rockets comply this aim.

Well, I dont like this style. For me, Factorio is about discovering various methods, play with them. Try nonsense but fun systems, like transport steam to outpost to make electricity there.

Ever-growing factory always was just one of many source of fun. Just one of many. While looking at steam stats, solid portion of customers even didnt reach first rocket, but game has high rating = even people who didnt built first rocket had fun and vote. Overfocus for max production numbers to satisfy noisy but small sub-comunity is wierd.

[Moderated by Koub : Off topic.]

[Panzerknacker]

[Moderated by Koub : response to an off topic moderated content.]

[MeduSalem]

Well, I dont like this style. For me, Factorio is about discovering various methods, play with them. Try nonsense but fun systems, like transport steam to outpost to make electricity there.

Who says you can't continue to do that? ^^

There will be elevated rails & bazillions of little improvements, to almost every single game system.
Ontop of that several new or alternative production chains they add with the planets. And one planet & its theme has not even been revealed yet. ^^

Enough to experiment & toy around with.


Only because it might be possible it does not mean we will be forced to make a 1mil SPM base. It is a sandbox game, you set your own goals. If 1mil SPM is not for you, you don't have to do that.

Because I doubt I will do something like that either. I never even went beyond 1k SPM on Factorio 1.1 either and that despite the thousands of hours I have in the game. I could have done much bigger megabases, I just never felt like it.