Nuclear Power Plant from the future

Power Plants, Energy Storage and Reliable Energy Supply. All about efficient energy production. Turning parts of your factory off. Reliable and self-repairing energy.
mmmPI
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 3640
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:10 pm
Contact:

Nuclear Power Plant from the future

Post by mmmPI »

Sometimes i feel like people are throwing a bunch of lego pieces in a box, closing it, shuffling it a lot, opening it, and regretting there isn't something that was built.
Then someone tell them they removed the flat pieces from the set of pieces that was thrown in the box.
And the answer is : "ah finally it was about time, now nothing prevents me from making that aircraft i was trying to make".

Inside to me it feels like a giggle and a facepalm at the same time. I felt this way when reading the FFF and some of the ensuing discussion about the fluid change. Where sometimes people just put together a bunch of pipes and tanks together and regret it doesn't work right away, change a thing here and there randomly, still doesn't work, and complain the game is broken.

I was more interested into understanding the change that was made, its consequences, rather than in the different method that can be used to fail at making a working system that different people thought should have worked and all expect will work in the future at the cost of potential disappointment.

You can probably guess i'm not 100% convinced by the announcement, i'm curious to see how it works with a lot of reserve, but as it was noted in the FFF ( 416) not everything was explained about the consequences of the changes. So i wanted to create a example of what would represent the thing i negatively anticipate the most, some sort of a silly system, that may become possible in game, maybe not, maybe in further FFF we'll read about the fixes that were successively added to make a system that is not what i would call "broken" ( if my nuclear power plant from the future works).

There you go : I HOPE IT WILL NOT WORK, i think the change may have the negative consequences of introducing the possibility to do such power plant.
dystopiaisbadfuture.jpg
dystopiaisbadfuture.jpg (4.27 MiB) Viewed 2919 times

It's "tileable" on the left, and you add some pumps on the right, with 16 core provided no mistake in quick math it should be fine with 3 pumps working full time.

There are a lot of tanks, they are counted as signal "tank" and the pump are only allowed to transmit when tanks are above 20K on average. This to me is a naive way of attempting to abuse the fact that entity consuming fluid will do so at a rate that depend on the fill level of where they consume from.

If you put a bunch of tanks and wait for them to be filled enough, then when opening the "valve", the liquid should be consumed by every single entity after the valve at the same time, including those very far away with no delay compared to those very close.

And in doing so there is no more notion of throughput, i still put 3 pumps for the 16 cores, considering 36K water per second is enough for the 432 turbines but i'm not even sure you need 3, if the pump just act as a valve you'd need just 1 pump.

That's not even the worst part of my negative anticipation, i kept it for the end, or at least i thought it would be the worst, and it looks atrocious, the way the water is brought to the power plant ( the pipe leaving screen at the bottom right of the long vertical picture connect to the pipe leaving screen on the top left corner of the square one)
wasactuallyfunnytodo.jpg
wasactuallyfunnytodo.jpg (341.12 KiB) Viewed 2919 times
But it was actually fun to do, when placing the pumps and drawing the text, it's not really how i would play factorio, when i need to do things that works i try to not goof around, not to the point it would prevent the thing to work at least, but if this is made foolproof, i realize it doesn't have only negative consequences.

I am leaving this in case it is needed in the future, or to demonstrate, for now, it clearly doesn't work :)




Here you go, in french we have a saying that would translate literaly into "spitting into the soup", meaning acting all butthurt about something to the point of propagating something non constructive ( or disgusting) into the "soup" that we'll end up drinking anyway. Go figure why the french langage had a necessity for such idiom .... :D I tried to bring a spicy, fresh fruit , one that smell like it's not super fresh, the one you can still eat but you'd rather not put in the soup if you can avoid it, so i avoided the news thread :twisted:
Last edited by mmmPI on Thu Jun 27, 2024 11:02 am, edited 3 times in total.
Koub
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 7784
Joined: Fri May 30, 2014 8:54 am
Contact:

Re: Nuclear Power Plant from the future (FFF 416 RANT)

Post by Koub »

Nothing prevented us from building a tileable 2xN nuclear plant in 1.1, so nothing new here.

On the other hand, when I was working on "maxed" designs (beaconed sandwiches), while always able to achieve what I wanted with solid items on belts, as soon as I tried to achieve something similar with fluids, I always failed due to the fluid system's unpredictability. In which kind of dystopian universe of madness should build order have an impact on the way a fluid flows through a straight pipe ?

The new system does not make the whole game trivial. It gives, however, predictability to what's built. Many builds that should theoretically have worked but didn't because "Factorio fluids" will now reliably work.

I like puzzles, but only when I have an understandable and reliable set of rules. This 2.0 fluid update will give me exactly that.

We have a saying here in France that could be translated by "don't throw the baby with the bath water". The game will be immensely better with it, so we shouldn't discard it just because some aspects of the fluid handling willl be less complex and that makes the puzzle aspect less present.
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.
Panzerknacker
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 235
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2022 5:27 am
Contact:

Re: Nuclear Power Plant from the future (FFF 416 RANT)

Post by Panzerknacker »

Wow, who does not want to replace his power plant with that one? (/sarcasm)
User avatar
MeduSalem
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1686
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:13 pm
Contact:

Re: Nuclear Power Plant from the future (FFF 416 RANT)

Post by MeduSalem »

Funnily Fluid 2.0 does not even make the puzzle aspect even less present. Because all the people complaining about a "lost puzzle aspect" are probably using blueprints themselves anyway, in which they already designed a Nuclear power plant or Refinery setup or whatever. There is no puzzling involved anymore if people plop down the same setup for years already anyway.

The limits of what there can be "puzzled" are reached for many years already. When it comes to anything related to fluids I plop down the same blueprints I have been using in 2018 because I already know nothing else works. There already is nothing to puzzle with fluids anymore even in the existing system.
Koub wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2024 8:11 pmMany builds that should theoretically have worked but didn't because "Factorio fluids" will now reliably work.
I totally agree with that... If at all the new fluid system will allow way more builds because you have the creative freedom to do whatever you want. ^^
Panzerknacker
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 235
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2022 5:27 am
Contact:

Re: Nuclear Power Plant from the future (FFF 416 RANT)

Post by Panzerknacker »

MeduSalem wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2024 8:18 pm Funnily Fluid 2.0 does not even make the puzzle aspect even less present. Because all the people complaining about a "lost puzzle aspect" are probably using blueprints themselves anyway, in which they already designed a Nuclear power plant or Refinery setup or whatever. There is no puzzling involved anymore if people plop down the same setup for years already anyway.

The limits of what there can be "puzzled" are reached for many years already. When it comes to anything related to fluids I plop down the same blueprints I have been using in 2018 because I already know nothing else works. There already is nothing to puzzle with fluids anymore even in the existing system.
Koub wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2024 8:11 pmMany builds that should theoretically have worked but didn't because "Factorio fluids" will now reliably work.
I totally agree with that... If at all the new fluid system will allow way more builds because you have the creative freedom to do whatever you want. ^^
If u just plop down blueprints, why do u care that fluids get changed then? Ur construction bots would just have to lay a few extra pipes with the old system, u wouldnt have to worry about figuring out the hard part.

Sorry but u make no sense at all, lmao.
User avatar
MeduSalem
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1686
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:13 pm
Contact:

Re: Nuclear Power Plant from the future (FFF 416 RANT)

Post by MeduSalem »

Panzerknacker wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2024 8:50 pmIf u just plop down blueprints, why do u care that fluids get changed then? Ur construction bots would just have to lay a few extra pipes with the old system, u wouldnt have to worry about figuring out the hard part.

Sorry but u make no sense at all, lmao.
Dude, I am NOT using blueprints because I find the old system hard. It is not hard at all. In fact the numbers for current throughput per distance of pipes placed already have been figured out many years ago. They are even on the wiki: https://wiki.factorio.com/Fluid_system#Pipeline
If you keep with the numbers pipes & amount of pumps and avoid any pipe branches one can have no throughput issues at all.

I am using the same blueprints again & again because there are NO real alternatives on how to do things whatsoever. There is no reason for me to experiment around anymore when I know for many years already that the old fluid system is finicky, that you have to do things in that specific way and that nothing else works. I played the game several thousand hours, there is nothing I can "puzzle" about it anymore, I figured everything out already.

Other people can pretend about the puzzle aspect as much as they like, but I know from experience already that there simply is not much to experiment with. People are at best wasting their time trying to overcome a finicky system that has flaws but for practical reasons then go back to what has been proven to work anyway. ^^
All the nuclear power plant builds that get posted on the Forum/reddit nowadays look exactly as they did back in 2017 when they first introduced the nuclear stuff into the game. I know because I was there.


I care for the change to the new system because I am bored as hell from the old system. I want to try different things again when the fluid system is not as quirky and limited as it currently is. I want to see if it makes a difference for some builds that currently don't work like they are supposed to.
Last edited by MeduSalem on Fri Jun 21, 2024 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
mmmPI
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 3640
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:10 pm
Contact:

Re: Nuclear Power Plant from the future (FFF 416 RANT)

Post by mmmPI »

Koub wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2024 8:11 pm Nothing prevented us from building a tileable 2xN nuclear plant in 1.1, so nothing new here.
When i tried i always failed due to the fluid system's unpredictability though and i'm not the one !

i can link to you around 20 topics full of people complaining that it was literally impossible to use the fluid system, that the game was broken, that it caused them hairloss, weightgain, greenish coloration of skin, and their face starting to look like shrek amongst all the atrocious symptoms of pain that were caused by trying to play the game with the fluid mechanic.

(/ half-sarcasm i can link the posts about the person who turned into shrek because of the fluid system that part is true, but i still managed to make nuclear power plant once by placing randomly things on the map)


I'm not sure it is a good idea to try and answer the rest of your post because then you may feel like you have to moderate me again if you think my rationnal argument are too good, you are somewhat in a position of power and you rightfully use it to protect innocent players expressing emotionnal feedback about their frustration playing the game, i can understand how not everything has to be rationnal and how "cold" logic can be "brutal" when exposed with a sensitivty that i may lack to communicate such emotionnless reasonning to what i project as young spirits that may have grew in a protective bubble which could subsquently cause them to feel offended by what could otherwise be neutral statement that they could take personnally and will do my best to avoid that situation occuring again.
Koub wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2024 8:11 pm We have a saying here in France that could be translated by "don't throw the baby with the bath water". The game will be immensely better with it, so we shouldn't discard it just because some aspects of the fluid handling willl be less complex and that makes the puzzle aspect less present.
I didn't do that in my opinion, what i "throw" or wanted to , was the countless example of failed system people could provide me with as proof that the game was broken while also adding their reasons, like they'd throw randomly things together, it doesn't work/make an airplane, then they do not ever question their method, they blame the game/ the set of pieces. And expect that suddenly everything will work as they thought once a change is made. But it happens a lot that people have a method that cannot work, and no change in the game will make it works, but they have a strong positive anticipation when they read something in the game is changed, because they think it will solve all their problems, but that change arrive, it doesn't ,because they still use the same broken method, ( like throwing random lego pieces in a box won't result in assembled airplane ever, it doesn't not matter the pieces you use, they can be changed by the devs many times without complains stopping ... ) and they blame again the game, and it's endless because they don't realize their own way of doing things is the problem.

I am trying to express where lies my interrogation regarding the FFF, not complain, because i read in the FFF :
It is a very fun system to play with. There are many interesting possibilities with this system that we did not predict, and we will share some of our stories in future FFFs. I may also go into detail about the architecture of this new system and how I approached the refactor at another time.
The exact throughput numbers are subject to change based on further playtesting.
That's what i'm curious about as i am quite well documented already on how people can use pipe improperly, from the gameplay help or bug report section.
mmmPI wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2024 7:20 pm You can probably guess i'm not 100% convinced by the announcement, i'm curious to see how it works with a lot of reserve, but as it was noted in the FFF ( 416) not everything was explained about the consequences of the changes.
mmmPI wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2024 7:20 pm There you go : I HOPE IT WILL NOT WORK, i think the change may have the negative consequences of introducing the possibility to do such power plant.
Read : I hope my power plant won't work and is the result of me misunderstanding the announced change, but i'm not sure.
Panzerknacker wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2024 8:13 pm Wow, who does not want to replace his power plant with that one? (/sarcasm)
I think half of the people complaining about the fluid system will still find it too hard and won't understand the new system. x)
MeduSalem wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2024 8:18 pm Funnily Fluid 2.0 does not even make the puzzle aspect even less present. Because all the people complaining about a "lost puzzle aspect" are probably using blueprints themselves anyway, in which they already designed a Nuclear power plant or Refinery setup or whatever. There is no puzzling involved anymore if people plop down the same setup for years already anyway.
After designing the nuclear plant from the future i have to say, the puzzle aspect can be felt as greatly diminished imo, there are still some ratios to do, and some puzzle aspect because the pipes needs to connect, if you miss some it doesn't work, if you connect things that shouldn't it may fail, there is enough for people to keep complaining that it is possible to fail. And there are still things that are not clear either, like the roles of pumps, and how will the numbers will be tweaked. I have lots of reserve and am not 100% convinced but also aware i do not have full picture.

But i'm sure i'm not the only one that "complain" about "lost puzzle aspect", even though it's not what i did, i said i hope my plant won't work. I don't know, it seem like what i did was too "simple" and that i may be overlooking how the change announced will actually translate in game. Anyway, amongst the persons that are not yelling their joy i do my own blueprints, like the one i posted, with in mind that i didn't want to make it work for 1.1 but for maybe 2.0 ? that can't be i must have missed something.
MeduSalem wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2024 8:18 pm The limits of what there can be "puzzled" are reached for many years already. When it comes to anything related to fluids I plop down the same blueprints I have been using in 2018 because I already know nothing else works. There already was nothing to puzzle with fluids anymore even in the existing system.
You are acting like the behavior you give to the person who criticize the change, re-using blueprints all the time, you won't be impacted by the change much then ? Unless i'm missing something, this is not an argument in favor of the new system. :twisted:

I use mods to make the game differents everytime though, so i change my design between games, and the fluid system and the temperature of fluid the actual simulation part is what to me is endless source of "complexity from simple rules". If you start making meta-rules that aim at providing a high level result instead of reliable small scale interaction you are going in a different direction and people will always argue on what is the best result, and that they don't have the one they want, which is more various and personnal preference rather than the more limited and more objective range of things that "can be done" as "set of rules that make sense" for people to use it to achieve their personnal preference with them.

I suppose the temperature of fluid thing will also get scrapped in the process, it's not something most people used anyway, and it is the original meaning of "machiaevel" to do the necessary evil all at once rather than slowly over time to make it more bearable to people that have to undergo it. It would have been source of 2 "controversy" to announce it in 2 different FFF, so i suppose i should understand that it is very "ethical prince" from the devs to make it only 1 "bad news" , one stone 2 bird . ( potential mods variety is impacted too )

MeduSalem wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2024 8:18 pm The current system discourages experimenting because of the limitations you cannot overcome.
If at all the new fluid system will allow way more builds because you have the creative freedom to do whatever you want. ^^
I understand what you mean, but i think it can also be argued the other way in a very reasonnable manner.

The current (old) system forces you to experiment to understand its intricacies , and reward you when it works with a feeling of having overcome a truly difficult problem whose ramifications are also puzzling real life scientist when pushed to the very high precision and desire to predict the chaotic system.

The creativity could be thought as when you have a few set of notes and you try to make good music, not when you give any word to an ai and it spit a song. If the system takes away your reflexion, then you are not expressing creativity you are following the rules, or "receiving" a result, not "making it". If it works all the time everytime, there is no research and i think it's in the research that one can also express "creativity" that is only visible in the result.

That's more philosophical opinion though, it may be considered off topic x) , i don't mind discussing about that, but this topic is more my "rant" about the system that i don't even have tested yet really.

I have no doubt that with creativity i will find a way to enjoy the new system , using self-imposed challenge if necessary, like mods ^^
Last edited by mmmPI on Fri Jun 21, 2024 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
FuryoftheStars
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 2768
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:01 pm
Contact:

Re: Nuclear Power Plant from the future (FFF 416 RANT)

Post by FuryoftheStars »

mmmPI wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2024 9:59 pm i can link to you around 20 topics full of people complaining that it was literally impossible to use the fluid system, that the game was broken, that it caused them hairloss, weightgain, greenish coloration of skin, and their face starting to look like shrek amongst all the atrocious symptoms of pain that were caused by trying to play the game with the fluid mechanic.
A lot of them have been merged recently, so it might be less, now. :D

(By the way, for the record, I pretty much agree with you. I've just decided to mainly stay out of the discussions this time because it's so disappointing and I know no matter what I say on this one, no one will be convinced otherwise and the devs are just going to keep going down this path, anyway.)
My Mods: Classic Factorio Basic Oil Processing | Sulfur Production from Oils | Wood to Oil Processing | Infinite Resources - Normal Yield | Tree Saplings (Redux) | Alien Biomes Tweaked | Restrictions on Artificial Tiles | New Gear Girl & HR Graphics
mmmPI
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 3640
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:10 pm
Contact:

Re: Nuclear Power Plant from the future (FFF 416 RANT)

Post by mmmPI »

FuryoftheStars wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2024 10:07 pm A lot of them have been merged recently, so it might be less, now. :D
I think it would be too good to be true if the change means there won't be more in the future :D

I think i some arguments that could be valuable FOR the system, to convince me to not anticipate negatively would be talking about the scale needed in the expansion, the role of fluid, not the "negative why" the "positive why" it was changed, because i am not convinced by those reports with (sometimes irrationnal) complaints. What made it necessary to change fluids, how are we going to use them in the future the new possibilities and so on, the future FFF may help in that regard to make me want to use those new pieces for a puzzle they fit with.
User avatar
MeduSalem
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1686
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:13 pm
Contact:

Re: Nuclear Power Plant from the future (FFF 416 RANT)

Post by MeduSalem »

mmmPI wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2024 9:59 pm After designing the nuclear plant from the future i have to say, the puzzle aspect can be felt as greatly diminished imo, there are still some ratios to do, and some puzzle aspect because the pipes needs to connect, if you miss some it doesn't work, if you connect things that shouldn't it may fail, there is enough for people to keep complaining that it is possible to fail. And there are still things that are not clear either, like the roles of pumps, and how will the numbers will be tweaked. I have lots of reserve and am not 100% convinced but also aware i do not have full picture.
For me that leaves enough gameplay to pipes. ^^

The only thing that really is diminished is that you don't have to place a ridiculous amount of pumps every other few meters to maintain the flow and which made builds like above in OP even more lengthy.

And the roles of pumps is still to control flow direction. You will still need them at least for dealing with the Refinery imbalances and what you want to crack down and such things. And that is fine for me.
mmmPI wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2024 9:59 pm [...] i said i hope my plant won't work.
It will likely work. And I am looking forward to it. :>
Because I fail to see what would be bad about it. It does not even look much different than what most Nuclear Plants look like.
Only because you can funnel it all through 1 pipe? xD
That does not bother me. And if it bothers others, it is not like anything forces them to do that. They can have 10 connections if that makes them happier.

mmmPI wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2024 9:59 pmI use mods to make the game differents everytime though, so i change my design between games, and the fluid system and the temperature of fluid the actual simulation part is what to me is endless source of "complexity from simple rules".
Even some of the mods would also play better if the fluid system would not behave as weird. ^^
mmmPI wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2024 9:59 pm I suppose the temperature of fluid thing will also get scrapped in the process,
Maybe, but not necessarily so. I imagine they could still keep the temperature "simulation".

When they add fluid into a pipe segment you can calculate a weighted average from the existing fluid+temperature in the pipe segment and the added fluid+temperature. So the temperature system can still work.

Obviously the temperature change would propagate instantaneously along the entire pipe segment, but that is another topic. ^^

mmmPI wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2024 9:59 pm I understand what you mean, but i think it can also be argued the other way in a very reasonnable manner.

The current (old) system forces you to experiment to understand its intricacies , and reward you when it works with a feeling of having overcome a truly difficult problem whose ramifications are also puzzling real life scientist when pushed to the very high precision and desire to predict the chaotic system.
Well, that we needed to experiment might have been like that many years ago when people had not figured out the math for the throughput values yet.

But we have them now. As a result we designed efficient setups around that a long time ago already. That is why I haven't experimented with it anymore since the devil knows when. There is no necessity because the math has not changed since then.

mmmPI wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2024 9:59 pm That's more philosophical opinion though, it may be considered off topic x) , i don't mind discussing about that, but this topic is more my "rant" about the system that i don't even have tested yet really.
It always is philosophical. That is part of the forum meta game. xD
mmmPI wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2024 9:59 pm I have no doubt that with creativity i will find a way to enjoy the new system , using self-imposed challenge if necessary, like mods ^^
The ironic part will be when people in 2.0 do almost exact the same setups as now, and thereby nothing changes and no one notices any difference. xD
mmmPI
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 3640
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:10 pm
Contact:

Re: Nuclear Power Plant from the future (FFF 416 RANT)

Post by mmmPI »

FuryoftheStars wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2024 10:07 pm (By the way, for the record, I pretty much agree with you. I've just decided to mainly stay out of the discussions this time because it's so disappointing and I know no matter what I say on this one, no one will be convinced otherwise and the devs are just going to keep going down this path, anyway.)
I'm thinking that the devs are quite good at communication, they gave us the "bad news" right away, but it is a "good" one for many players, no doubt, albeit maybe sometime missplaced due to too high expectations. ( similar to controversial quality announced first, then explained over time how it integrate into a whole)

The other FFF i suppose will give information on things that may justify / explain the decision that was taken beyond reacting to critics , like the role of fluid, and the new challenges that are prepared for us players with the better tools at our disposal in the future. It can only get better right ? :D
I have hope this will be the case because i'm again not convinced the complaints were to be taken too seriously to justify such change in the game alone, but once several elements together justify the change, devs can announce it as answering some complaints because it literally does :)

I'm also remembering the name Aquilo on a music sheet, and i think it has to do with cold or snow, which may be related to water like the future planet could require, (at least one) extensive management of water / fluid system, which would have been too difficult with the older system, or at scale that would have give it prohibitive UPS cost something like that. Such kind of "good news", like appealing gameplay element allowed thanks to the new system that couldn't have been presented to players before.

I stay out of the other discussion because i can see people are already into endless argument and don't need me for that this time. :D
mmmPI
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 3640
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:10 pm
Contact:

Re: Nuclear Power Plant from the future (FFF 416 RANT)

Post by mmmPI »

MeduSalem wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2024 10:59 pm The only thing that really is diminished is that you don't have to place a ridiculous amount of pumps every other few meters to maintain the flow and which made builds like above in OP even more lengthy.

It always is philosophical. That is part of the forum meta game. xD
I have re-structured the quote because i think part of what is diminished that i mentionned earlier is also the fact that the game provide a challenge that one can tame at different level of understanding, the "latest" level the "most difficult" the "deepest" one, would be the fluid dynamic expert. And having a fun game that allows human being to play at say 16 or 20 but also 40 or 60 80 ... and continue learning about the system without even finding the end of things to learn because they merge with real life questions still pending for experts on the fields is a strengh in the (meta)game.

The gameplay implication are also supposed to address the "unpredictability" of the fluid system, which imo could be tamed without precise understanding with the tools provided. Complete understanding was beyond the time and effort most people are willing to put in a video game, that can be frustrating, but is also a lesson in life , if we are talking about philosophy , isn't game like sport place to learn how to deal with those frustrations ?^^

MeduSalem wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2024 10:59 pm It will likely work. And I am looking forward to it. :>
Because I fail to see what would be bad about it. It does not even look much different than what most Nuclear Plants look like.
Only because you can funnel it all through 1 pipe? xD
That does not bother me. And if it bothers others, it is not like anything forces them to do that. They can have 10 connections if that makes them happier.
There is also the fact that since everything is funneled through 1 pipe, a single pump there can turn the whole nuclear plant on/off instantly, the pump opens , and suddenly all the 1204325359 turbines output little smoke because they are filled with steam ? because in the previous system there are 1242342034203423 tanks filled with steams, so the total is 99.999% full even when adding the turbines ? The large the system the "more ridiculous" it would look , that's why i'm curious about the tweaking of the numbers, that's what would roughly replace the formula that make up the throughput for now.

( and the 2nd picture, it shouldn't work, it's cursed )
MeduSalem wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2024 10:59 pm Maybe, but not necessarily so. I imagine they could still keep the temperature "simulation".
When they add fluid into a pipe segment you can calculate a weighted average from the existing fluid+temperature in the pipe segment and the added fluid+temperature. So the temperature system can still work.
Obviously the temperature change would propagate instantaneously along the entire pipe segment, but that is another topic. ^^
This is the opposite of two bird one stone, it's like saying the bad news once, and then adding "but it's not sure", and then you'd have to confirm the bad news and it would make it sound like it's a second time the bad news that arrive.x)

MeduSalem wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2024 10:59 pm Well, that we needed to experiment might have been like that many years ago when people had not figured out the math for the throughput values yet.
But we have them now. As a result we designed efficient setups around that a long time ago already. That is why I haven't experimented with it anymore since the devil knows when. There is no necessity because the math has not changed since then.
When i read all the "complaints" on the forum i highly doubt this is felt by players in general, that there was no need to experiment because it was all solved already. And understanding this information is also the reason the game has "depth" that make someone like me play for years and not switch to another game once it's figured out. Figure out fluid mechanic ? or circuit network ? that's not just 100 hours of "gameplay" that's a lifetime lesson of engineering or math or programmation. ( it's not only the fluid mechanic, but it's part of it ).


MeduSalem wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2024 10:59 pm The ironic part will be when people in 2.0 do almost exact the same setups as now, and thereby nothing changes and no one notices any difference. xD
That's funny x), maybe a good point as it could turn out to be true for many players, but i'd rather say "only someone who doesn't make its own blueprint wouldnt notice the difference " which is not a contradiction on the idea, only on the "no ones" :D
functional
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:37 pm
Contact:

Re: [FFF416]Nuclear Power Plant from the future (RANT)

Post by functional »

You're the person who completely disregarded my (and others?) complaints about fluid mechanics. Seemingly even developers disagreed with you though, because they acknowledged pretty much everything people have been critiquing the fluid mechanics.
Panzerknacker
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 235
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2022 5:27 am
Contact:

Re: [FFF416]Nuclear Power Plant from the future (RANT)

Post by Panzerknacker »

functional wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2024 7:18 am You're the person who completely disregarded my (and others?) complaints about fluid mechanics. Seemingly even developers disagreed with you though, because they acknowledged pretty much everything people have been critiquing the fluid mechanics.
Then you go and have fun with your powerplant like in the picture. Meanwhile, the pros will quit the game and look elsewhere.
User avatar
MeduSalem
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1686
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:13 pm
Contact:

Re: [FFF416]Nuclear Power Plant from the future (RANT)

Post by MeduSalem »

Panzerknacker wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2024 7:26 am Meanwhile, the pros will quit the game and look elsewhere.
I hope you are aware that with such a reply you sound like a spoiled kid on the floor of a toyshop whose mum said no.

And even if a small percentage of people might really stop playing because of such a triviality, you are NOT speaking on the behalf of all the "pros".

It is more likely that you will suck it up too and continue to play like mostly everyone else. Simply because you cannot leave it be. ^^

Also you know... there is also the possibility to stick with an old version of the game if people don't like the game's direction. The devs always keep most of the older versions around for people to opt in. I am sure a small group of people might do that and they will likely mod the hell out of it.
mmmPI
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 3640
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:10 pm
Contact:

Re: [FFF416]Nuclear Power Plant from the future (RANT)

Post by mmmPI »

functional wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2024 7:18 am You're the person who completely disregarded my (and others?) complaints about fluid mechanics.
Seemingly even developers disagreed with you though, because they acknowledged pretty much everything people have been critiquing the fluid mechanics.
Given the quality of the argumentation you present, it is highly likely that your complaint was discarded as unfounded, like a player who does a bad setup and blame the game starting his post by "like everybody else i found it impossible to use pipe" as refered to in the post, thank you for illustrating the kind of behavior that provoque in me giggle and facepalm at the same time mentionned too.

I'm saying this because your wording suggest that you think only me was not agreeing with you and i don't even remember interacting with you earlier.

Seemingly, many players were able to use pipe and fluid mechanic in the last 10 years and make nice base.

I hope you too will, in the future, eventually also be able to make nice power plant.

In the mean time please you or everyone else do create your own post to express your joy ; the devs will most likely appreciate more than players picking a fight in the forum don't you think ?

You can use personnal message too if you have something more (or less?) interesting to say to me personnaly to avoid making Koub's task harder, since those message won't be moderated it will also allow me to explain my ideas faster :)
Last edited by mmmPI on Sun Jun 23, 2024 9:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
mmmPI
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 3640
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:10 pm
Contact:

Re: [FFF416]Nuclear Power Plant from the future (RANT)

Post by mmmPI »

Panzerknacker wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2024 7:26 am Then you go and have fun with your powerplant like in the picture. Meanwhile, the pros will quit the game and look elsewhere.
Although i do agree with the first part of the message, i do not share the second one, and only midly appreciate the tone of the answer, i'd like it better if you could ignore non-constructive criticism from players that may lack ability to do so and instead keep the thread focused onto what are the most negatively anticipated feature or negative consequences from the FFF.

I imagine many of them are coming from not knowing exactly the full implementation details, and i think it could be constructive to sum them up, to have a clear list, and make sure the devs explains properly if those negative points are valid concern that need to be explained with design decision and why it fit the whole future game or coming from misunderstanding the future system and need to be adressed with more explanations on how it will work in practice. ( or other thing i can't think of yet).
Last edited by mmmPI on Sun Jun 23, 2024 9:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
mmmPI
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 3640
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:10 pm
Contact:

Re: [FFF416]Nuclear Power Plant from the future (RANT)

Post by mmmPI »

MeduSalem wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2024 9:10 am I hope you are aware that with such a reply you sound like a spoiled kid on the floor of a toyshop whose mum said no.
I would like to remind you that there exist personnal message on this forum that can be used for such (sometimes unsollicited ) parenting advices, as it can be embarrassing to receive such statement it public, it may help you get your point accross better :lol:
MeduSalem wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2024 9:10 am Also you know... there is also the possibility to stick with an old version of the game if people don't like the game's direction. The devs always keep most of the older versions around for people to opt in. I am sure a small group of people might do that and they will likely mod the hell out of it.
I think this is a valid point for the "meta-game" even in the future, students or players could still compare the 2 system and use it for learning purposes / illustration in research, or have fun comparing the 2 system in different situations, for those who think those are fun :)
Last edited by mmmPI on Sun Jun 23, 2024 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Panzerknacker
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 235
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2022 5:27 am
Contact:

Re: [FFF416]Nuclear Power Plant from the future (RANT)

Post by Panzerknacker »

Well I am not gonna buy the expansion any longer unless they turn this around or are able to give a really good reason why this needs to be changed (the reasons provided so far are lacking so much that I consider them non-existent).

I am fine with playing the game as it is now.
Tertius
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 935
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2021 5:58 pm
Contact:

Re: [FFF416]Nuclear Power Plant from the future (RANT)

Post by Tertius »

Panzerknacker wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2024 7:26 am Then you go and have fun with your powerplant like in the picture. Meanwhile, the pros will quit the game and look elsewhere.
What a funny line :lol: I don't know if I count as pro, but I assume I'm somewhat proficient after building lots of systems using fluids, including many different tileable and not tileable nuclear reactor setups in the multi GW range. I say I fully understand the 1.1 fluid system, with all its quirks and its unpredictability. I can deal with everything it brings. And I'm fully open to the new system. You cannot reject it before you even used it.

Look it the other way round: Imagine the game always came with the 2.0 fluid system. You play this for years, never knowing any different. Now there's an update that introduces a different system advertised as "more realistic", known by us from the 1.1 game. Imagine the outcry and shitstorm, because all bigger fluid builds suddenly stop working properly. People try fixing and fail, because it's so different with longer distance pipes and high throughput. Even more people would leave the game, because a "broken mechanic" was introduced with no reason other than some rather irrelevant goal of "more realism". Seeing it from that perspective, no one would embrace the 1.1 system.
Last edited by Tertius on Sun Jun 23, 2024 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Post Reply

Return to “Energy Production”