Friday Facts #416 - Fluids 2.0

[Contramuffin]

I think the issue is that water flows differently when a pipe is not full, vs. when a pipe is full. When water flows in an empty pipe, it acts similarly to the old system, but when a pipe is full, it acts similarly to the new system.

I think a good compromise is to say that a pipe segment acts like the old system, until the total liquid volume crosses a certain threshold (e.g. 50% of the max volume of the segment?), at which point the segment transitions into the new system

Not sure if this is feasible, but it might be possible to do some wacky mixes of the two systems, like for instance, you can have pipes that are within segments and pipes that aren't. Segments act under the new system, and non-segmented pipes act under the old system. A pipe joins a segment when it fills up enough to cross a certain threshold, and segments are dissolved into non-segmented pipes when the total volume of the segment falls under a certain threshold

[nova4x]

It's realistic that pipeline length decreases throughput, that's how it works in reality because the longer the pipe the more resistance it imposes. You simply need more paralel pipelines if you require high throughput over a long distance. Or you must produce solid products locally near a oil source and transport them by train.

Being able to teleport a basically infinite amount of liquid over any distance (as long as supply > demand) is utter nonsense.

Isnt it possible to keep the old system and just change that at an intersection, fluid spreads to both directions depending on the fill percentage?

only when the tube is completely filled is it a 100% teleportation. You can extract a percentage of the filling per second.
Let's say a machine can suck in 5l/sec. But the pipe is only 20% full because it is very long. Then your machine only gets 1l/sec.
But the ratio could also be different, the less filled the less she could suck in. So instead of 1/5 at 20% only 1/10 at 20% filling or even more extreme.

What I am saying, is "as long as supply > demand". In that case, the pipeline is eventually going to fill up to 100% which will eventually ALWAYS enable the teleporting/infinite flowrate.

I already think belts are overpowered in this game compared to trains because they allow totally free transportation (no fuel cost like trains). Now you can totally ditch the trains, when it comes to fluids.

You say trains are OP compared to belts, but if you run a belt over 1000 tiles, that'll cost you 3000 plates + 15000 of the resources your putting on the belt if it's a full belt for a grand total of 18000 iron ores taken by your system if you're running a belt for that
Compare that to a train, that'll be around 3500 resources to make your system only assuming you didn't reuse any rail and about 2000 resources in transit

Likewise, if you use pipes to make some sulfuric acid over such distances, you'll have to invest 100000 units of sulfuric acid to fill the pipe, which is about 30 minutes of a factory working to make your pipe work, 2000 plates, and 10000 sulfur, which is a huge waste

So the only way I could see reasonable to use hyper long pipes is to move water, but water is available everywhere

These are false arguments considering that if you lay a belt towards a iron mine (as in your example) you are going to mine there until the mine is empty. So the ore that is sitting on the belt will eventually make it to the factory, it does not make a difference that the belt is acting as a huge buffer. Also, the belts can be picked up and re-used just like the rails. Even if the initial cost to lay a belt was higher than the railway, the running cost of the belt is equal to zero, so it will win out in the end.

The belt doesn't win out in the end though because you can't repurpose it. Have fun running that belt a super long distance and then manually having to either deconstruct or redirect a new belt bus to it. It makes more sense to use trains if you value your time because you can just have circuits that stop sending trains to the dead outpost. You can build a new output and never have to even consider the old out. Trains end up being much more automatic and self governing than manual belt placing. Throughput with trains is higher unless you want to make a massively wide belt highway like you see in north american suburbs.

[numzero]

Oh and also... did you people just call pumping steam from the heat exchangers to the turbines realistic?

[Lithane]

I think the new system can work, but I have an issue with the fact it's essentially acting as a portal system, where as long as there is enough fluid to get all the way across the pipes, you are essentially teleporting fluids instantly to where you want it, this completely goes against every other form of moving entities in the game(belts, trains, rockets, robots, they each take time to move an item from point a to point b). You could keep a variation of the current fluid system, where it takes time for fluids to travel, and the fluid should follow the path of least resistance(traveling in a straight-line until it hits a dead end, removes the unpredictability of intersections), also I feel that fluids should have a static distance of pipe that each fluid can travel before needing a pump to boost the flow (otherwise the fluid shouldn't even go into the pipe you are pumping to, it should just error out and say not enough pressure right on the pump, this number should be different for different fluids, since each would be a different density, you could also add a pressure value to every machine that can add fluid to a pipe, not just pumps to integrate all fluids into this system), to top off the changes to the old system get rid of the fluid losing pressure over distance, since you could handle that at the time the pump is placed, that way the pipes can fill up all the way to the end. So long as the system isn't full, it would use the old system, but if you are pumping enough fluid into the system to completely fill the pipe, it could use the new system, since that's basically how a full pipe would operate anyways.

• Keep a variation of the old system.
• Add path of least resistance logic to the old system, to make fluids travel in a straight line until obstructed, then propagate from there, to create predictable flow.
• Change the current system of losing throughput over distance to a static pressure system, which is different for every fluid based on density.
• When you connect a pump or machine that adds fluid to a pipe, add a visual warning to the machine that indicates not enough pressure if a segment of the pipe is too long, could also add an indicator to all sections of the pipe that are too long, so you know where to add booster pumps.
• If any straight-line segment of a pipe is too long to be pressurized, then that entire segment of the pipe should not fill at all with fluid(essentially add a block on that pipe to keep it from filling until more pressure is added), but other segments of pipe could theoretically still be filled, or not, up for debate.
• Once a pipe is completely filled, then a system similar to the newly proposed fluid system could take over control, so long as the system is completely filled with the fluid.

Just my two cents, I think there is a happy medium that can be found between optimizing it to just magically work and having some cool fluid dynamics in the game.

[nova4x]

I think the new system can work, but I have an issue with the fact it's essentially acting as a portal system, where as long as there is enough fluid to get all the way across the pipes, you are essentially teleporting fluids instantly to where you want it, this completely goes against every other form of moving entities in the game(belts, trains, rockets, robots, they each take time to move an item from point a to point b). You could keep a variation of the current fluid system, where it takes time for fluids to travel, and the fluid should follow the path of least resistance(traveling in a straight-line until it hits a dead end), also I feel that fluids should have a static distance of pipe that each fluid can travel before needing a pump to boost the flow (otherwise the fluid shouldn't even go into the pipe you are pumping to, it should just error out and say not enough pressure right on the pump, this number should be different for different fluids, since each would be a different density), to top off the changes to the old system get rid of the fluid losing pressure over distance, since you could handle that at the time the pump is placed, that way the pipes can fill up all the way to the end. So long as the system isn't full, it would use the old system, but if you are pumping enough fluid into the system to completely fill the pipe, it could use the new system, since that's basically how a full pipe would operate anyways.

Just my two cents, I think there is a happy medium that can be found between optimizing it to just magically work and having some cool fluid dynamics in the game.

Power transmission is instant but I know that's not what you mean. I figure that some of the dynamic of managing a fluid system could be achieved with output caps and pipe tiers. See here

[half a cat]

Factorio's appeal is that its core mechanics produce logistics puzzles—how do you move things from source to destination?—and this change removes the puzzles for fluids. As Plop-and-Run mentioned, it's like turning belts into arbitrary-size chests.

Here's an example of how the fluid mechanics play in to producing argon. It's a trace constituent of air. You need a lot of air, too much to push down a long, low-capacity pipe. Even though you've used the same machines already for hydrocarbons, your hydrocarbon build can't handle the high throughput of air filtration. So you compress the air (round machines), use expensive high-capacity pipes (black), and separate production into compact modules with short pipes (distributed pairs of air filters). It isn't the same problem with renamed fluids, but something new.

argon.jpg (281.06 KiB) Viewed 2542 times

If fluid flow is instant, the problem is reduced to replicating what you've done before. Make space on the fluid bus. Copy and paste the old machines. Change the recipe.

bussy-argon.jpg (306.73 KiB) Viewed 2542 times

Instant fluid flow takes away the puzzles and leaves the chores.

[Terrahertz]

Also the example in the FFF with the chemical plants doesnt make sense. Each of those plants should have it's own dedicated pipeline considering they are fully upgraded/beaconed with max quality level modules. Also, the plants should be situated near the place where they need to deliver their product, not in a dedicated area with just all the plants piled/copypasted in one single location. You are simply doing it wrong.

This reminds me of the people who tell you that steamstorage and elaborate curcuit networks for nuclear-powerplants are pointless and wrong, given the abundance of Uranium on the map. But there is nothing wrong as long as it is turning fuel-cells into electicity. It might be pointless, but it's fun and challenging. And as the entire argument for keeping the old broken system is around "The Challenge", I find it highly ironic that the arguments start to sound like the typical ramblings of people arguing for the "One TRUE Way" of playing the game.

You are slapping yourself in the face with your own arguments. 'But there is nothing wrong as long as it is turning fuel-cells into electicity.' So what is wrong with the pipes than, as long as it is turning light oil into petroleum gas? You could just lay down dedicated pipes for every chem plant, no need to mess with the way pipes work.

Well the difference is: I don't expect the game or the entire playerbase to bow down to my playstyle. If I was acting like a lot of the opponents of this change, I would demand the devs reduce the default amount of uranium spawning, just to validate my playstyle. But thats maidenless behavior

And before you say: "Your playstyle is not threatened by the update", well Legendary Productivity Modules make it even more pointless than it is already. Yet I don't mind. I will still play like this, so can you. Nobody will prevent you from building complex fluid-systems. But they will be just as pointless as my reactor setup. In the end you only do it for your own amusement, basically the point of a game, isn't it?

[yarrbelookin]

"Fixing fluid dynamics was too hard so we removed fluids from the game"

uh....and we are supposed to be happy about this? not really interested in making pipes have infinite capacity and the ability to instantaneously teleport unlimited amounts of "fluid" unlimited distances.

[eloepp]

That's the first FFF about the new Factorio that I have just read and thought... hold on... so... you just did that? And this wasn't a build up to a series of trial and errors that eventually came out with something that worked similarly to the old system and was still workable?

It's disappointing to be honest. I can pump oil from 10,000 miles away and it will instantly appear at the other end? It's more a teleporter than a pipe.

I'd far prefer the old system, by a LONG way. The quirks are what makes it, not a watered-down perfect, zero-maintenance solution. It's just ripe for exploits that destroy the immersion in the game.

I realise that it's hard work, but the old system needs to be kept if this is the alternative. It adds nothing and takes away a huge aspect of the game, and makes fluids become "just connect this wire and it all works" which removes huge tracts of the fun. Completely destroys barrelling as well - what's the point when you can instantaneously transport all fluids everywhere? I can even see someone make a single long pipeline to a remote station and "schedule" the pipes with circuits to transfer every fluid product into a storage tank, switching using circuits as to what the current fluid is to pump, and what tank it's put into at the end. One pipe, eliminates the entire fluid, barrelling and train transport of fluids in one hit.

I don't "pipe up" (sorry!) often, but no... let's go back to the old way.

agreed. don't like to be negative, and honestly every FFF ever I have been happy about and agreed with, but this feels like the only one I know of where they... "gave up" for lack of a better word. In my mind the developers are super human and can over come any issue eventually, lol. So this was a little disappointing. I have been waiting for this FFF on fluids and I was expecting to see how they over came some difficult problems but it appears they just bypassed it altogether.

people saying fluids were a pain...that's what I like about Factorio, it is a pain, until you "solve" it, and feel extremely satisfying. Sometimes it is really hard to predict, so much so that I'd have to put blueprints into sandbox and see what actually happens, but it was fun. It gave me something to do...I probably played the game more up until this point because of it.

I'll try to stay optimistic though. I hope this new system has some problems to solve, because, to me, that's what Factorio really is - problem solving. I don't want a big part of the game to be something I barely have to think about. That isn't the essence of Factorio to me.

[Jarin]

Personally, I'm definitely going to miss some elements of the old system, but I understand why the change was made. Having infinite fluid distance without pumps is going to feel wrong, though...

[nova4x]

Personally, I'm definitely going to miss some elements of the old system, but I understand why the change was made. Having infinite fluid distance without pumps is going to feel wrong, though...

There will be some startup lag from needing to fill the pipeline to 100% to get full throughput but you will get fluid instantly, not like it was that slow before tho.

[Plop and run]

Why are we talking about realism or not? This is a game about logistics, and the point is to have logistical puzzles. It doesn't matter if the system is realistic or not, it just needs to make sense on some level, so that it is understandable, and provide a challenge through limitations.

Teleporting liquid with infinite throughput is not a logistical challenge, it is a rudimentary mechanic. Yes, the current system has its quirks and is not understandable in extreme cases, but at least it is a limitation of player's abilities.

Space platform is not realistic either, yet no one is complaining. It is fun because it creates a logistical challenge of limited resource transfer between planets, and an engineering one of designing the platform. You know, instead of having a pipe-to-space and belt-to-space connectors that just teleport stuff between planets.

[Philip017]

Very good change to the Fluid Mechanics,
I was wanting this change for 1.0
Glad you took it upon yourself to address this for 2.0 at least

Thank you!

[idgod]

Any chance for a rework for electric energy?
Fluids now work like electrics (plus the pipe themselves are kind of mini-accumulators).

I always found the electric network to miss the electric resistance in the copper.
And that you can connect two networks with just one wooden pole which transfers all the electrons :/

So I guess the change to that electric system is even more unlikely now.
Would be too nice to have different levels of voltages (i.e. less resistance) depending on the type of pole you're using and a maximum throughput for different poles.

[MrGrim]

I see your "Fun over Realism", and I raise you a "Simplicity over Fun".

I've noticed a trend as the weeks go by. More and more of my blueprints books are becoming worthless, replaced with paint by numbers mechanics. The fluid system wasn't interesting because of its realism. It was interesting because of its emergent complexity. Balanced fluid loading stations became an interesting puzzle to solve. Now they just.. happen. Just draw a line from here to there. It's fine, you don't need to think too hard about it.

It's really disappointing to see a game that use to embrace its niche begin to lower the bar for mass appeal.

Designing a rail based refinery able to produce 150k of petroleum gas was a crazy fun challenge. I was really damn proud of it when I finally fixed every bottleneck in the pipe layout. I suspect I won't have so much to be proud of for my next one.

[JigSaW]

This isn't fluids 2.0, it's fluids 0.5.

Absolutely horrendous decision, it completely removes the complex logistical puzzles related to fluids which were also unique to each big overhaul. The flow was an original mechanic with which you had to experiment, learn and master it, be aware of it's aspects and quirks, etc. And overhauls made it even more engaging while playing with the capacity/pressure numbers and/or adding completely new types of pipes (throughput-wise).

Sure, it wasn't perfect but this isn't fixing an issue with a janky non-ideial mechanic, this is simply removing it and/or dumbing it down (cos you absolutely could do 12-24k/s throughput builds before, i've done it in several overhauls). This is the same as if someone would remove all inserters from the game and replaced them with mini-loaders. I don't even care about vanilla experience, this will majorly hurt challenges of most overhauls.

Since quality (and high speeds of liquid production you could reach with it) seems to be the reason the flow mechanic was gutted you can at the very least make it an option to turn on or off in the settings, give your players a choice. What's even more frustrating is that quality (let me remind you, the most controversial new feature) is an addition to the old gameplay and is optional, but Fluids "2.0" takes things away from gameplay but you're forcing it on everyone.

[Panzerknacker]

Also the example in the FFF with the chemical plants doesnt make sense. Each of those plants should have it's own dedicated pipeline considering they are fully upgraded/beaconed with max quality level modules. Also, the plants should be situated near the place where they need to deliver their product, not in a dedicated area with just all the plants piled/copypasted in one single location. You are simply doing it wrong.

This reminds me of the people who tell you that steamstorage and elaborate curcuit networks for nuclear-powerplants are pointless and wrong, given the abundance of Uranium on the map. But there is nothing wrong as long as it is turning fuel-cells into electicity. It might be pointless, but it's fun and challenging. And as the entire argument for keeping the old broken system is around "The Challenge", I find it highly ironic that the arguments start to sound like the typical ramblings of people arguing for the "One TRUE Way" of playing the game.

You are slapping yourself in the face with your own arguments. 'But there is nothing wrong as long as it is turning fuel-cells into electicity.' So what is wrong with the pipes than, as long as it is turning light oil into petroleum gas? You could just lay down dedicated pipes for every chem plant, no need to mess with the way pipes work.

Well the difference is: I don't expect the game or the entire playerbase to bow down to my playstyle. If I was acting like a lot of the opponents of this change, I would demand the devs reduce the default amount of uranium spawning, just to validate my playstyle. But thats maidenless behavior

And before you say: "Your playstyle is not threatened by the update", well Legendary Productivity Modules make it even more pointless than it is already. Yet I don't mind. I will still play like this, so can you. Nobody will prevent you from building complex fluid-systems. But they will be just as pointless as my reactor setup. In the end you only do it for your own amusement, basically the point of a game, isn't it?

I don't know what your on about but my post was simply a counter argument against the example with the chem plants. This would probably be solvable with the old fluid system also. You want to put quality modules to use in liquid setups? Better learn your piping. I think having to rebuild layouts due to having access to higher tier production facilities is not a bad thing, compared to just dropping in a new module and off you go.

[Rebmes]

Wow, things are heating up for what sounds like the best option in a longstanding problem.

Personally, I wasn't impacted by the fluid problems, not much anyway. I may have had some unexplained problems here and there.

However, I'm willing to give up a little realism for the sake of both UPS and functionality.

[Panzerknacker]

Wow, things are heating up for what sounds like the best option in a longstanding problem.

Personally, I wasn't impacted by the fluid problems, not much anyway. I may have had some unexplained problems here and there.

However, I'm willing to give up a little realism for the sake of both UPS and functionality.

What is the point of gaining UPS if the megabase you're building is dumbed down?

[catpig]

I think this is a great change. Both the new and the old system are thoroughly unrealistic (just in different ways) - but the new one is clearly much more playable/fun. Also, on the realism of factorio logistics generally: how many times have you seen open-air belts connecting an iron ore smelter to a car factory or a research facility?