Friday Facts #414 - Spoils of Agriculture

[Saphira123456]

If any of you have played satisfactory, I would compare the early game of that to gleba. Satisfactory’s belts are generally too slow for a main bus design, so until you unlock better transportation options you’re kind of forced to build near the ore patches, reducing transport times greatly. And, if you keep the correct ratios in mind, items on belts basically never stop moving, so transport times within factories are low too.

And while satisfactory is a wildly different game from factorio, gleba, and spoilage, I think this comparison shows a valid way to structure your base: Localized factories surrounding resource patches (trees). In fact I think spoilage has been made to specifically encourage this.

Ehhh, as someone who has played Satisfactory A LOT, I honestly can't help but disagree here.

I often find that even on the Impure nodes, I often have a backlog of ore and a backlog of ingots. And it's very easy to get a backlog of intermediate products, especially of basic products like iron plates and rods, as well as copper items like wires. ((For those who don't know, ore patches in Satisfactory are infinite and come in three different purities which affect the yield: Pure, Normal and Impure.)

The one intermediate product I'm always running out of in the early to mid-game, is screws.

I also run several mods that add other items to the game, such as Ficsit Farming which adds food consumables.

If Satisfactory implemented spoilage whether through the mod or by vanilla, without adding a way to preserve items, such as refrigeration, I'd be in big trouble as most of my products are stacked up in containers. Same here in Factorio, since I play the same way here as I do there.

[Goodman599]

If any of you have played satisfactory, I would compare the early game of that to gleba. Satisfactory’s belts are generally too slow for a main bus design, so until you unlock better transportation options you’re kind of forced to build near the ore patches, reducing transport times greatly. And, if you keep the correct ratios in mind, items on belts basically never stop moving, so transport times within factories are low too.

And while satisfactory is a wildly different game from factorio, gleba, and spoilage, I think this comparison shows a valid way to structure your base: Localized factories surrounding resource patches (trees). In fact I think spoilage has been made to specifically encourage this.

Ehhh, as someone who has played Satisfactory A LOT, I honestly can't help but disagree here. (For those who don't know, ore patches in Satisfactory are infinite and come in three different purities which affect the yield: Pure, Normal and Impure.)

I often find that even on the Impure nodes, I often have a backlog of ore and a backlog of ingots. And it's very easy to get a backlog of intermediate products, especially of basic products like iron plates and rods, as well as copper items like wires. (The one intermediate product I'm always running out of in the early to mid-game, is screws.)

If Satisfactory implemented spoilage without adding a way to preserve items, such as refrigeration, I'd be in big trouble as most of my products are stacked up in containers. Same here in Factorio, since I play the same way here as I do there.

I personally try to use every up all of the ore a miner can produce since the resource nodes in satisfactory are finite (as in the amount of them), so when things back up it’s generally because my storage container at the end is full. With the infinite availability of fruit trees on Gleba, not using all of the throughput of a miner/tree harvester won’t even be an issue. I was also talking more about the way you build factories, since it’s not really feasible to gather all of the ore in the world to one central smelting station and distribute ingots from there main bus style with buffers. I was just offer another way to build the factory for those who think refrigeration is absolutely necessary.

[Saphira123456]

If any of you have played satisfactory, I would compare the early game of that to gleba. Satisfactory’s belts are generally too slow for a main bus design, so until you unlock better transportation options you’re kind of forced to build near the ore patches, reducing transport times greatly. And, if you keep the correct ratios in mind, items on belts basically never stop moving, so transport times within factories are low too.

And while satisfactory is a wildly different game from factorio, gleba, and spoilage, I think this comparison shows a valid way to structure your base: Localized factories surrounding resource patches (trees). In fact I think spoilage has been made to specifically encourage this.

Ehhh, as someone who has played Satisfactory A LOT, I honestly can't help but disagree here. (For those who don't know, ore patches in Satisfactory are infinite and come in three different purities which affect the yield: Pure, Normal and Impure.)

I often find that even on the Impure nodes, I often have a backlog of ore and a backlog of ingots. And it's very easy to get a backlog of intermediate products, especially of basic products like iron plates and rods, as well as copper items like wires. (The one intermediate product I'm always running out of in the early to mid-game, is screws.)

If Satisfactory implemented spoilage without adding a way to preserve items, such as refrigeration, I'd be in big trouble as most of my products are stacked up in containers. Same here in Factorio, since I play the same way here as I do there.

I personally try to use every up all of the ore a miner can produce since the resource nodes in satisfactory are finite (as in the amount of them), so when things back up it’s generally because my storage container at the end is full. With the infinite availability of fruit trees on Gleba, not using all of the throughput of a miner/tree harvester won’t even be an issue. I was also talking more about the way you build factories, since it’s not really feasible to gather all of the ore in the world to one central smelting station and distribute ingots from there main bus style with buffers. I was just offer another way to build the factory for those who think refrigeration is absolutely necessary.

True, I don't bring ore to a central smelting station there either. I manufacture products on-site whenever I find the ore and then bring the finished or partially-finished products to my hub. This especially has to happen with oil products.

The biggest issue isn't the initial source, whether it's ore, oil, or fruit. It's the later products spoiling.

[Goodman599]

The biggest issue isn't the initial source, whether it's ore, oil, or fruit. It's the later products spoiling.

And I bet those are going to be the ones with the longest timers, unless the devs intend to bring some extra form of challenge with a quickly spoiling important item. Especially because this FF suggests that we are bringing gleba science packs to nauvis, the science packs at the very least will definitely have a long spoil time. Which goes back to my initial post: Initial processing of goods will be done locally, but the factory can still expand greatly because the end products are much less restrictive in where you can bring them.

[Saphira123456]

The biggest issue isn't the initial source, whether it's ore, oil, or fruit. It's the later products spoiling.

And I bet those are going to be the ones with the longest timers, unless the devs intend to bring some extra form of challenge with a quickly spoiling important item. Especially because this FF suggests that we are bringing gleba science packs to nauvis, the science packs at the very least will definitely have a long spoil time. Which goes back to my initial post: Initial processing of goods will be done locally, but the factory can still expand greatly because the end products are much less restrictive in where you can bring them.

The problem here is, without at least some amount of storage I'm pretty much sunk. I like to pile up my products as much as possible in storage so that I have extra but with rapid spoilage of products that only last a few minutes in game, that's not possible.

[Goodman599]

The biggest issue isn't the initial source, whether it's ore, oil, or fruit. It's the later products spoiling.

And I bet those are going to be the ones with the longest timers, unless the devs intend to bring some extra form of challenge with a quickly spoiling important item. Especially because this FF suggests that we are bringing gleba science packs to nauvis, the science packs at the very least will definitely have a long spoil time. Which goes back to my initial post: Initial processing of goods will be done locally, but the factory can still expand greatly because the end products are much less restrictive in where you can bring them.

The problem here is, without at least some amount of storage I'm pretty much sunk. I like to pile up my products as much as possible in storage so that I have extra but with rapid spoilage of products that only last a few minutes in game, that's not possible.

One thing you could do is to still have a buffer, but there’s also an extra inserter that takes out all of the spoiled items and puts it into processing. It’s a bit wasteful but probably still viable. Don’t need circuit conditions either because it’s just setting a filter.

[Saphira123456]

The biggest issue isn't the initial source, whether it's ore, oil, or fruit. It's the later products spoiling.

And I bet those are going to be the ones with the longest timers, unless the devs intend to bring some extra form of challenge with a quickly spoiling important item. Especially because this FF suggests that we are bringing gleba science packs to nauvis, the science packs at the very least will definitely have a long spoil time. Which goes back to my initial post: Initial processing of goods will be done locally, but the factory can still expand greatly because the end products are much less restrictive in where you can bring them.

The problem here is, without at least some amount of storage I'm pretty much sunk. I like to pile up my products as much as possible in storage so that I have extra but with rapid spoilage of products that only last a few minutes in game, that's not possible.

One thing you could do is to still have a buffer, but there’s also an extra inserter that takes out all of the spoiled items and puts it into processing. It’s a bit wasteful but probably still viable. Don’t need circuit conditions either because it’s just setting a filter.

True, but there's also limited space. Remember the build has to be compact with quick trips, so an extra inserter from a buffer might not be the right way to go about it.

[FuryoftheStars]

The biggest issue isn't the initial source, whether it's ore, oil, or fruit. It's the later products spoiling.

And I bet those are going to be the ones with the longest timers, unless the devs intend to bring some extra form of challenge with a quickly spoiling important item. Especially because this FF suggests that we are bringing gleba science packs to nauvis, the science packs at the very least will definitely have a long spoil time. Which goes back to my initial post: Initial processing of goods will be done locally, but the factory can still expand greatly because the end products are much less restrictive in where you can bring them.

The problem here is, without at least some amount of storage I'm pretty much sunk. I like to pile up my products as much as possible in storage so that I have extra but with rapid spoilage of products that only last a few minutes in game, that's not possible.

One thing you could do is to still have a buffer, but there’s also an extra inserter that takes out all of the spoiled items and puts it into processing. It’s a bit wasteful but probably still viable. Don’t need circuit conditions either because it’s just setting a filter.

True, but there's also limited space. Remember the build has to be compact with quick trips, so an extra inserter from a buffer might not be the right way to go about it.

From what we see of the dev setups in the FFF, they are setup to allow the items to pass by. Likely they have a splitter to filter out the bad and loops the good back around. They also mentioned filters based on ttl remaining.

[Goodman599]

The biggest issue isn't the initial source, whether it's ore, oil, or fruit. It's the later products spoiling.

And I bet those are going to be the ones with the longest timers, unless the devs intend to bring some extra form of challenge with a quickly spoiling important item. Especially because this FF suggests that we are bringing gleba science packs to nauvis, the science packs at the very least will definitely have a long spoil time. Which goes back to my initial post: Initial processing of goods will be done locally, but the factory can still expand greatly because the end products are much less restrictive in where you can bring them.

The problem here is, without at least some amount of storage I'm pretty much sunk. I like to pile up my products as much as possible in storage so that I have extra but with rapid spoilage of products that only last a few minutes in game, that's not possible.

One thing you could do is to still have a buffer, but there’s also an extra inserter that takes out all of the spoiled items and puts it into processing. It’s a bit wasteful but probably still viable. Don’t need circuit conditions either because it’s just setting a filter.

True, but there's also limited space. Remember the build has to be compact with quick trips, so an extra inserter from a buffer might not be the right way to go about it.

One cursed thing I just thought of is train wagon belts, where the wagons act as a long container that inserters pass items through. Transportation would be lightning quick and setting filters at any stage can take out spoiled products. And since transportation is that quick then I doubt the extra half second needed to create space for spoiled goods belt would matter either.

This is just another way of designing your factory on gleba. If you’re willing to sacrifice about 1 or 2 seconds of freshness to make space for a spoiled belt, that’s fine too.

Also, maybe it’s because it’s been a while since I read the post, but I thought freshness didn’t impact the “quality” of a product? Like a 50% rotten science pack would still give 100% research value? Might be wrong on that, but if I’m right then it won’t even matter if your science packs get to the lab with 10 seconds left on the clock if it can be used up in time.

[Saphira123456]

And I bet those are going to be the ones with the longest timers, unless the devs intend to bring some extra form of challenge with a quickly spoiling important item. Especially because this FF suggests that we are bringing gleba science packs to nauvis, the science packs at the very least will definitely have a long spoil time. Which goes back to my initial post: Initial processing of goods will be done locally, but the factory can still expand greatly because the end products are much less restrictive in where you can bring them.

The problem here is, without at least some amount of storage I'm pretty much sunk. I like to pile up my products as much as possible in storage so that I have extra but with rapid spoilage of products that only last a few minutes in game, that's not possible.

One thing you could do is to still have a buffer, but there’s also an extra inserter that takes out all of the spoiled items and puts it into processing. It’s a bit wasteful but probably still viable. Don’t need circuit conditions either because it’s just setting a filter.

True, but there's also limited space. Remember the build has to be compact with quick trips, so an extra inserter from a buffer might not be the right way to go about it.

One cursed thing I just thought of is train wagon belts, where the wagons act as a long container that inserters pass items through. Transportation would be lightning quick and setting filters at any stage can take out spoiled products. And since transportation is that quick then I doubt the extra half second needed to create space for spoiled goods belt would matter either.

This is just another way of designing your factory on gleba. If you’re willing to sacrifice about 1 or 2 seconds of freshness to make space for a spoiled belt, that’s fine too.

Also, maybe it’s because it’s been a while since I read the post, but I thought freshness didn’t impact the “quality” of a product? Like a 50% rotten science pack would still give 100% research value? Might be wrong on that, but if I’m right then it won’t even matter if your science packs get to the lab with 10 seconds left on the clock if it can be used up in time.

See, this is why I really wanted preservation to at least be possible while on trains. They're fast but also high capacity, making getting huge amounts of product possible so long as they're picked, turned into initial product, and loaded on time.

[Goodman599]

One cursed thing I just thought of is train wagon belts, where the wagons act as a long container that inserters pass items through. Transportation would be lightning quick and setting filters at any stage can take out spoiled products. And since transportation is that quick then I doubt the extra half second needed to create space for spoiled goods belt would matter either.

This is just another way of designing your factory on gleba. If you’re willing to sacrifice about 1 or 2 seconds of freshness to make space for a spoiled belt, that’s fine too.

Also, maybe it’s because it’s been a while since I read the post, but I thought freshness didn’t impact the “quality” of a product? Like a 50% rotten science pack would still give 100% research value? Might be wrong on that, but if I’m right then it won’t even matter if your science packs get to the lab with 10 seconds left on the clock if it can be used up in time.

See, this is why I really wanted preservation to at least be possible while on trains. They're fast but also high capacity, making getting huge amounts of product possible so long as they're picked, turned into initial product, and loaded on time.

I was not talking about trains themselves but the wagons. I don’t know how to post an image but you can check out this video and skip to the 5:45 mark to see what I’m taking about:
https://youtu.be/6mgQwzom0Xo?si=QdfKUN1nHGBjhUky

But yeah I think trains will be limited to either short trips or long shelf life products.

[GregoriusT]

You all do know filling up a train wagon using belts will take quite some time, right? There is a reason people put Buffer Chests at Trainstops. You will end up with half the darn wagon being rotten by the time its full before it can even leave the station. I do NOT think you are supposed to ever use Trains for ANY Spoilers, except maybe Bio Sci Packs, and even then it does not seem like a good Idea.

[Goodman599]

You all do know filling up a train wagon using belts will take quite some time, right? There is a reason people put Buffer Chests at Trainstops. You will end up with half the darn wagon being rotten by the time its full before it can even leave the station. I do NOT think you are supposed to ever use Trains for ANY Spoilers, except maybe Bio Sci Packs, and even then it does not seem like a good Idea.

Oh yeah. And even just waiting for a train to get back to its station is gonna take some time, unless you put down a ton on the same track.
The only feasible way I can think of would be having trains leave stations on a timer and not cargo count so it just acts like a faster belt, but still doesn’t seem good. Maybe perishables on trains are a no-go then.

[mmmPI]

If we are going to transport those items on different planets as indicated on the FFF, thru spaceplatform, i'm confident there will be enough time to use trains to transport the refined good if need be.

Reminder in the FFF :

To avoid this mechanic being over the top and to allow meaningful decisions to be made, there are some items where their freshness doesn't contribute to the final product as the final product is something that isn't spoilable. On the other hand, the new Agricultural science packs do spoil which reduces their value for research, so you will be incentivized to try to bring home the freshest science packs you can.

There are some items and recipes with spoilable ingredients which need to be crafted on different planets, so on top of optimizing the production chain, it'll also be meaningful to make a fast space platform to deliver them.

The main tools for manipulating spoilables are inserters, with a new ability to prioritize the freshest or the most spoiled items when picking up from inventories, and filtering out spoilage with splitters.

[Goodman599]

If we are going to transport those items on different planets as indicated on the FFF, thru spaceplatform, i'm confident there will be enough time to use trains to transport the refined good if need be.

Reminder in the FFF :

To avoid this mechanic being over the top and to allow meaningful decisions to be made, there are some items where their freshness doesn't contribute to the final product as the final product is something that isn't spoilable. On the other hand, the new Agricultural science packs do spoil which reduces their value for research, so you will be incentivized to try to bring home the freshest science packs you can.

There are some items and recipes with spoilable ingredients which need to be crafted on different planets, so on top of optimizing the production chain, it'll also be meaningful to make a fast space platform to deliver them.

The main tools for manipulating spoilables are inserters, with a new ability to prioritize the freshest or the most spoiled items when picking up from inventories, and filtering out spoilage with splitters.

I think I’m letting this thread get to me a bit. Even 30 minutes, let alone 2 hours, is a really long time for an item to sit in a chest/on a belt.

Also thanks for confirming that spoiled science packs do indeed give less research!

[mmmPI]

Also thanks for confirming that spoiled science packs do indeed give less research!

I'm not confirming anything, i'm just quoting the FFF as a reminder ^^

[Saphira123456]

You all do know filling up a train wagon using belts will take quite some time, right? There is a reason people put Buffer Chests at Trainstops. You will end up with half the darn wagon being rotten by the time its full before it can even leave the station. I do NOT think you are supposed to ever use Trains for ANY Spoilers, except maybe Bio Sci Packs, and even then it does not seem like a good Idea.

Oh yeah. And even just waiting for a train to get back to its station is gonna take some time, unless you put down a ton on the same track.
The only feasible way I can think of would be having trains leave stations on a timer and not cargo count so it just acts like a faster belt, but still doesn’t seem good. Maybe perishables on trains are a no-go then.

Exactly. This is why I wanted preservation on trains at minimum, so that one could gather the raw fruits at the farm, then ship them to an area that is cleared and not so cluttered for rapid processing/packing.

[mmmPI]

True, I don't bring ore to a central smelting station there either. I manufacture products on-site whenever I find the ore and then bring the finished or partially-finished products to my hub. This especially has to happen with oil products.

The biggest issue isn't the initial source, whether it's ore, oil, or fruit. It's the later products spoiling.

Exactly. This is why I wanted preservation on trains at minimum, so that one could gather the raw fruits at the farm, then ship them to an area that is cleared and not so cluttered for rapid processing/packing.

Hard to follow all your reasonning.

[Saphira123456]

True, I don't bring ore to a central smelting station there either. I manufacture products on-site whenever I find the ore and then bring the finished or partially-finished products to my hub. This especially has to happen with oil products.

The biggest issue isn't the initial source, whether it's ore, oil, or fruit. It's the later products spoiling.

Exactly. This is why I wanted preservation on trains at minimum, so that one could gather the raw fruits at the farm, then ship them to an area that is cleared and not so cluttered for rapid processing/packing.

Hard to follow all your reasonning.

It depends on what I'm harvesting really. Sometimes I like to manufacture on site, other times it's easier to ship to a central area.

For oil products, I like to ship intermediate products in by rail and then the finished product (research packs usually) out by rail.

And you missed the important part in that last quote:

"an area that is cleared (in this case of trees) and not so cluttered"

[Moderated by Koub - off topic, don't restart a personal attacks escalation]

[mmmPI]

it's much better explained now thank you

[Moderated by Koub - Response to a since moderated content]