Friday Facts #410 - Rocket turret & Target priorities

[Koub]

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[Koub] I'm OK with you discussing on that, but please, do so in the thread where Qon showcases his build, not here, where it's mostly off topic. Or in private if you prefer settling things just between you. And obviously, please keep things respectful.

[X3KJ]

Can we please also get a cannon turret? ☺ Using the tank turret as reference maybe? Or something beefier...
It's a crime that tank cannon shells are so underutilized, and only serve as intermediary product for artillery now (which doesnt make much sense logically, but i'm willing to suspend my belief there for the greater good).

Relying on rockets can be a problem because they take a long time to the target. Cannons are much faster -> the target can't get as close.
The deficiency of the slow rocket speed is apparent when you use multiple spidertrons to try and run over big biter nests.

Figuring out the best targeting trade-off between cannon and missile sounds like a fun balance to strike. Figuring it out between missile and mg is kind of a no brainer.

Edit:
1) Maybe even best of both worlds? -> spidertron variant with cannons. And the turret can be used stationary too
2) Could we please also get a minimum firing range setting? For nuclear and explosive missiles this seems kinda important to not blow up your own base.
3) It would make sense to limit the firing arc of missile turrets too (similar to flame turrets, but maybe a little wider? Imagine bugs knawing at the wall sections, only to have one distant Nuke turret be in range of them and wreck the entire defense line.

Honestly i feel like the missile turret for asteroids should be cannons... removing the electrical component, but still having target tracking makes not much sense, when you also have "dumb" rounds - in the form of cannons. Or alternatively - rocket vs. missile. Rockets for firing unguided (at asteroids, which don't move unpredictably) and Missiles for firing at bugs etc.

[gGeorg]

Can we please also get a cannon turret? ☺ Using the tank turret as reference maybe?
It's a crime that tank cannon shells are so underutilized, and only serve as intermediary product for artillery now

FFF says:

not a coincidence that the turret has similarities with the head of a Spidertron. You could almost expect the Space Age recipe of Spidertrons to be a rocket turret + four exoskeletons...

we need another defence tower type, the canon tower :
not a coincidence that the turret has similarities with the turret of a Tank. You could almost expect the Space Age recipe of tank to be a canon tower + forty belts...



Rocket turret - 36 range, low rate of fire - lower than in FFF
Canon turret - 30 range, low accuracy
Laser turret - 24 range, dmg depends on range, Max dmg at range 0 = 150% of current dmg, min dmg at range 24 = 20% of current dmg, dmg goes up linearly based on range. Very realistic behaviour of laser beams when range makes lasers harmless. Cost of shot is still the same, obviously.
Gun turret - range 18, it is good as it is
Flamer turret - range 14, arc 130, object is on fire for 7s (instead of current 13s), Dmg of Ignited objects: 50/s fire (instead of 100/s) ,when enemy get direct hit from tower then it get stun same as from step on mine explosion;
- althou there is no bonus dmg for oil type, bonus slow down movement speed of enemies is based on oil type - crude oil - 15%, light oil 30%, heavy 60%.
Heavy oil is very sticky, so it slow down enemies most. Heavy oil has limited usage and his large consumptions would create challenge to balance oil industry, it also promotes underused Coal liquefication.
This way flamer is turned into a crowd control instead of main killer. Flamer turret buys some seconds so other turrets can do killing, so its support weapon.

[Qon]

Canon turret - 30 range, low accuracy

I'm going to assume that you meant low precision but perfect accuracy.

A low precision turret seems like a neat concept though, it will not suffer much at all versus groups of enemies, but it is unreliable (if it is alone) and inefficient against single targets. Cannon shells are not guided like rockets so makes sense to give them something to give them some kind of nerf to differentiate them from rocket turrets and balance out their (from memory) superior damage (especially for uranium rounds). The unreliability can be resolved by having a lot of them (if other turrets don't stop shooting because they think the missing shells will hit) so that the fire rate goes up, but the efficiency would still be low against single targets. And if the fire rate is high then low precision doesn't affect gameplay quite the same so it would probably be a less interesting mechanic on other ammo types.

[Panzerknacker]

I don't think target priorities is a good idea. This makes the game more unrealistic, like turrets have some kind of neural network with camera system built in to distinguish one biter from the other instead of a simple motion tracker. Also, the whole challenge of a succesful defense is positioning the turrets, walls, mines in a way that works. Being to able to set target prio's kinda makes that game much more straightforward (aka dumbed down)

[Qon]

I don't think target priorities is a good idea. This makes the game more unrealistic, like turrets have some kind of neural network with camera system built in to distinguish one biter from the other instead of a simple motion tracker.

This is technology we have today, how is that unrealistic!?!? That's the definition of realism.

realism
noun
1: concern for fact or reality and rejection of the impractical and visionary

realism /rē′ə-lĭz″əm/ noun
1. An inclination toward literal truth and pragmatism.
2. The representation in art or literature of objects, actions, or social conditions as they actually are, without idealization or presentation in abstract form.

Realism, Arts
Realism in the arts is generally the attempt to represent subject matter truthfully, without artificiality and avoiding speculative and supernatural elements.

This in a game about future tech. And one of the first things you craft in game is a burner inserter that has the same technology to filter out items.

Also, the whole challenge of a succesful defense is positioning the turrets, walls, mines in a way that works. Being to able to set target prio's kinda makes that game much more straightforward (aka dumbed down)

Nah, the positioning will still be meaningful. Choosing priorities is just another parameter to set up, you could say it increases complexity and player agency to make mistakes or optimize further. Now some new positioning might be possible with the right priorities, but then you have to take the natives complex behavior into account even more and have to know how each positioning interacts with each priority setup.

And this isn't really a big challenge anyways. The factory that makes the turrets and ammo and the infrastructure to supply ammo and repairs to the walls is the actual game. You can just spam big dense wall with no real regard for positioning and it will work if you have enough turrets. Priority makes the calculated and efficient designs with less turrets more competitive with the dumb "just place more turrets". And the dumb and inefficient strategy of just having overwhelming firepower doesn't benefit from priority because it has the firepower to obliterate everything before there's a second option to consider.

Priority is the feature that unlocks designing defensive walls well and rewards it. It's smarting it up.

[Panzerknacker]

I don't think target priorities is a good idea. This makes the game more unrealistic, like turrets have some kind of neural network with camera system built in to distinguish one biter from the other instead of a simple motion tracker.

This is technology we have today, how is that unrealistic!?!? That's the definition of realism.

You forget that gun turrets are a simple early game defense that are built out of iron gears and plates. No circuits involved.

Also, it doesn't make sense that you can select 'attack this type of biter', it makes it all too obvious that this is a digital world which is made up of binary data where there are X type of biters and those of a certain type are all exactly identical. Good immersive game design tries to break away from these things instead of making it worse on purpose.

[bobucles]

Kinda neutral on the target priority thing. Strong defenses are already strong, so making them even better isn't really breaking new ground. It could have much more potential in mods, but I dunno how well explicit priority is going to work when mods have hundreds of "prefix, suffix" permutations of biters.

[Qon]

I don't think target priorities is a good idea. This makes the game more unrealistic, like turrets have some kind of neural network with camera system built in to distinguish one biter from the other instead of a simple motion tracker.

This is technology we have today, how is that unrealistic!?!? That's the definition of realism.

You forget that gun turrets are a simple early game defense that are built out of iron gears and plates. No circuits involved.

Also, it doesn't make sense that you can select 'attack this type of biter', it makes it all too obvious that this is a digital world which is made up of binary data where there are X type of biters and those of a certain type are all exactly identical. Good immersive game design tries to break away from these things instead of making it worse on purpose.

Maybe if you read my whole post you wouldn't make that silly mistake of thinking I forgot something. I already wrote about burner inserters.

You don't know good game design. It's an art, you can't just follow some hard rules and get an amazing game. Everything isn't about making things "immersive", games provide other things as well that has to be balanced against the "immersiveness". Like giving agency to the player (it's not a movie) and making it fun to play by having engaging mechanics.

[bnrom]

Will we be able to set a minimum firing range (greater than the minimum turret range), and also limit the firing arc?
I'd love to be able to use explosive rocket ammo, and I think without those features there would be too much self damage (e.g., explosive rockets blowing up other turrets and walls). E.g., like in this mod version of a rocket turret: link, the explosive rockets seem to causes too much self damage.

[Thorgeous]

Any chance we could add a condition to this list?? It would be awesome to put out a signal for "Engaging target" or something along those lines. Would be awesome if it could send out what target. I'm imagining, you could turn on or off backup power if the front line of turrets start firing turning on backup lasers. Previously you could have complicated accumulators to see if its pulling power or something. Or you could, by saving a history of engagements, decide what ammo is needed where. Saving better ammo for more attacked spots. You could make ratios off the list of combatants to do all sorts of stuff. Not asking for all this, these are just examples of how you could use it if it could send info on the line.

Bottom line request: Add "Engaging" signal as a generic letter symbol similar to the original accumulator or bot readouts.
Extra over the top enhancement: Report what target is being engaged.

Also, just wanted to say thanks for all the hard work on these changes for 2.0/Space age. So excited!!

[Mendel]

AUTOMATED FISHING?!?!!?

Automated fishing already works in 1.0. Set up a long-handled inserter on the water's edge with a box behind it, and every time a fish comes into range, it'll be grabbed and salted down in the box. Plus, you don't have to supply the salt

Wait, WHAT?!?! All these years I have been manully fishing for no reason?!? Mind. Blown.

[R0ald]

Will the spidertrons also get target priorities and will they be seperate for rockets and pld?
Currently, my spidertrons don't use their pld much, because by the time the biters are in range for them, a rocket is already on the way to the biter and they aren't targeted by the pld.
It would be nice if I could save on rockets and leave the smaller biters to the pld. This could also kill the (smaller) biters faster, because rockets take some time to get to the target, so if you're moving towards the biter, they're in range of and could've been killed by the pld before the rocket hits.