Friday Facts #409 - Diminishing beacons

[Lizzy]

Cool cover image! I hope the beacon sprite gets "lighter" like this in 2.0.

[DanGio]

Congratz, seems really good to me. Combined with quality and productivity research, I think it'll make a nice smooth curve from start to big base.

[Toppledturtle]

This table is finite, how does it behave if, say, we were to put 1000 modded beacons around a building ? Does it just take the last value of the table ? Or is there a way to set a function instead of a table ?

Sqrt(n)*300%. Where n is the amount of beacons

[gGeorg]

Here is an adventurous idea.
Whole effort you have made with beacons is about "more types of valid blueprints".
Lets make a Beacon_transmitter a new building. This new beacon transmitter works same as "becon overload" e.i. only one Beacon transmitter per area. Area is 50x50. It can be re-used the proposed, bbut not used "Sauron-eye-Beacon" model.
Then a standard beacon, which is inside the Beacon_transmitter area is added to the power of the Beacon_transmitter.
One Beacon transmitter can handle up to 16 beacons.

This way player get an playground of 50 x 50 tiles where up to 16 beacons can be placed anywhere, then effect is applyed on all production buildings. This way player can make innovative blueprints which dont need to be so rigid symmetrical.

[WarpShuffle]

Since calculators are now a requirement, are you including one in-game?

When it comes to optimising in the end-game, Factorio is very much like Wordl: the most fun to be had is in the designing and building of one's own algorithms and calculators. It is extremely satisfying to hack some Python and, later, see your little block of chaos designed with the output numbers actually filling a blue belt without gaps.

Unlike writing a bot to solve Wordl, while you're hacking out code to calculate layout and module ratios, your factory is still running and working in the background – perhaps even visibly, on another monitor.

The only problem in 1.1 was that by the time you got to this phase, it was probably only ticking over ammunition production and infinite research and repair supplies which wasn't all that spectacular to watch after a few hundred hours. It looks like the expansion will give a lot more to look forward to – and time, while space platforms zip back and forth.

[mmmPI]

Yeah, that's why I was thinking that standard / "uncooled" beacons could be allowed to operate at the worst performance tier which would be the same as current vanilla, while different tiers of cooling would let them operate at superior levels.

I like this, it open up the choices to make a "early" build that has some room left to add beacons, and later the coolant system. Or you could just plan to do another setup "mid game" or "late game" and tear down the previous. It also allow for the feeling of progression not only in the game as the beacons get better but also for a player, the choice mentionned is only visible after several games, once player have an overview of the whole tech tree.

That's actually part of the reason why I was thinking of heatpipes.

I agree with the distance argument, if the "heat consumption" is properly adjusted it makes it impossible to have only 1 "heat center" that distribute everywhere, it has more pros thans cons for the purpose. But that causes the beacons to no longer be able to work on solar pannel only, as you can only heat "heat pipes" with nuclear fuel currently. The expansion may change this, i'm thinking of the lava planet, but that is a "drawback".

I like the idea of beacons needing to be connected to heat exchangers with heat pipes, and those heat exchangers accepting coolant and outputting warmer coolant, which would have to be cooled back down through a new radiator building.
I also like the idea of having the speed of heat transfer from heat pipe to coolant, and coolant to air be governed by actual heat transfer equations, such that it isn't just a simple question of having enough cooling, but about how hot you're okay with your beacons running at equilibrium.

The equations would need to be well adjusted, if the beacon require heat from heat pipe to transmit module effects, it makes it consume energy, but if it need to be kept cool, it means it produces heat in the pipes, and as such ,it could be used to create energy or recover some of electricity cost under the form of heat, which would need to be transformed into electricity again. It could be a different mechanic and math, that sound interesting too.

[aka13]

I like the proposal a lot, sounds like fun. Could have a gui similar to the usual wifi frequency analyzer tools. Open a topic in suggestions, perhaps someone will start off with a mod.

[Mandromeda]

I like the proposal a lot, sounds like fun. Could have a gui similar to the usual wifi frequency analyzer tools. Open a topic in suggestions, perhaps someone will start off with a mod.

Will do! thanks for the suggestion.

[Elocutiona]

The equations would need to be well adjusted, if the beacon require heat from heat pipe to transmit module effects, it makes it consume energy, but if it need to be kept cool, it means it produces heat in the pipes, and as such ,it could be used to create energy or recover some of electricity cost under the form of heat, which would need to be transformed into electricity again. It could be a different mechanic and math, that sound interesting too.

Well, since heat exchangers can only generate steam (and thereby power) when at 500 degrees or above, simply having beacons get to at most 400 degrees would make it impossible to salvage any power from them. That's probably for the best, since any kind of energy recapture would be yet another beacon buff.
Side note, in the real world, we have mineral oils that can be used as coolants in the range of 400 degrees just fine, so this isn't even an unrealistic number.

[mmmPI]

Well, since heat exchangers can only generate steam (and thereby power) when at 500 degrees or above, simply having beacons get to at most 400 degrees would make it impossible to salvage any power from them. That's probably for the best, since any kind of energy recapture would be yet another beacon buff.
Side note, in the real world, we have mineral oils that can be used as coolants in the range of 400 degrees just fine, so this isn't even an unrealistic number.

That make sense to me, beacon would work best when not at 400 degrees, there would be overheating at this temp, hence the need to keep them cooled, the coolant could be at that temperature or around, it wouldn't be high enough to be used for energy generation.

It may turn the whole design a bit "bulky" and limit flexibility at the smaller scale of 32x32 tiles vision of a single "block", but it would open up strategic depth at a little larger scale, more the geographic one, where furnaces mall, train station, beaconned area, cooling areas, non-beaconneds areas, mall would have increased variety of blocks and constraints.

Such ideas are also part of what makes me excited for the expansion, even if they are not implemented, they are brainstormed and maybe enabled by some engine changes for future mods to take advantage of.

[Elocutiona]

That make sense to me, beacon would work best when not at 400 degrees, there would be overheating at this temp, hence the need to keep them cooled, the coolant could be at that temperature or around, it wouldn't be high enough to be used for energy generation.

It may turn the whole design a bit "bulky" and limit flexibility at the smaller scale of 32x32 tiles vision of a single "block", but it would open up strategic depth at a little larger scale, more the geographic one, where furnaces mall, train station, beaconned area, cooling areas, non-beaconneds areas, mall would have increased variety of blocks and constraints.

My idea relies on higher quality speed modules also causing higher power consumption instead of simply having higher primary bonus. This way, beacon setups as we know them now would require relatively modest and reasonably cooling, but at the highest end, a single building fully beaconed with tier 5 speed modules would require cooling infrastructure on the scale of say, a 4-reactor setup.
Beacons could even perform as we know them today when uncooled, getting higher effect transmission the lower their operating temperature.
You know those mods that allow you to build a single gigantic furnace with the capacity of a city block's worth of furnaces, but granting a huge advantage in UPS? I imagine a single fully tier 5 speed beaconed furnace reaching that kind of scale. Assuming the cooling mechanic can be made UPS efficient, it'd be attractive in the late-game for the same reasons.

[Tnarg]

I'm worryed that people are still going to feel the need to go with the boring Max beacon setup. I the Space Experaction setup, maybe something in the middle so that the beacon hits max power with 4 beacons, and 5 is just as powerfull with no benerfits. but thats just me.

[mmmPI]

but at the highest end, a single building fully beaconed with tier 5 speed modules would require cooling infrastructure on the scale of say, a 4-reactor setup.

That when i start to consider how wide would be the coverage of this beacon, because if it is not at least the scale of the 4-reactor, it will "cap" the amount of beaconned machine a player is allowed to have, to 50% roughly. Because even if a player tried to beacon everything, there would still need to be roughly 4-reactor worth of foothprint used by subfactory that cool those beacons.
And it would not be possible to beacon such cooling factory if they are larger than the coverage of a single beacon.

You know those mods that allow you to build a single gigantic furnace with the capacity of a city block's worth of furnaces, but granting a huge advantage in UPS? I imagine a single fully tier 5 speed beaconed furnace reaching that kind of scale. Assuming the cooling mechanic can be made UPS efficient, it'd be attractive in the late-game for the same reasons.

I see, that's not how i thought about it from the first description, where imagined a "bulky" design due to "rows" or "line" of beacons, alternating with machines, and heatpipes and belts and pipes.

Such city-block coverage beacons are similar (to me) to those shown in the FFF, those from space exploration. The drawback mentionned was that it has a tendancy to standardize builds around the size of such city-block. ( and then the coolant subfactory that goes with potentially harming the concept).

I'd be attractive still, beacons in space exploration i found enjoyable to use. The overload mechanism may be partially to blame for the standardization of builds around a single beacon. The coolant system is more flexible, it could allow 2 or even 3 maybe of those large beacon to overlap, but the player would have to deal with the subfactory, 3 of them , to cool the beacon, making it harder to fit everything in a tight space limited by the reach the heat pipes.

The coolant system though may seem repetitive. ( instead of having 20 or 50 beacon, there would be 1 beacon and 20 or 50 cooling entity ). That tend to happen in exotic industries, the different tiers of beacons break this somehow because there are different coolant design unlock as the game progress, but once you reach late game, maybe players will just stamp the "best" cooling design everywhere.

It's tough to think of a perfect system x), when i read the FFF i was happy because i couldn't find something to point at and say "but this may not work" and i do that a lot, maybe the points im mentionning are not going to manifest in games due to pacing, balance, choice of planets to explore first and so on, just me being overly worry.

I'm worryed that people are still going to feel the need to go with the boring Max beacon setup. I the Space Experaction setup, maybe something in the middle so that the beacon hits max power with 4 beacons, and 5 is just as powerfull with no benerfits. but thats just me.

I am unsure what will be the boring max beacon setup yet, i'll try to make one, but with speed module in beacons ? and productivity modules in the machines that are surrounded ? That won't apply for the quality refining areas. Maybe i'm wrong not to worry, but i think the game will offer different optimal setup and combo of modules regarding different way of being cost-efficient, in ressources, or energy, or space occupied, and also provide different environments, the space platform, planets where lava/iron/copper is abundant, planets where energy is free from the sky under the form of lightning. I suppose it could lead to players trading off energy for ressource efficiency in some places and not in others. While space efficiency may be more important than ressource efficiency in the space platform, considering the ressources will be in excess on the platform, not the space.

[XT-248]

What issues would heat pipes and heat exchangers fix about beacons? Wouldn't that overcomplicate a complicated beacon mechanic?


I am not opposed to adding more reasons to use for niche items such as heat pipes and heat exchangers. I don't think combining heat pipes/exchangers and beacons would be the right approach. I guess I see a different problem that the WUBE developers should focus their energy on.

Take the Vulcanus environment: Lava and heat area near open lava. Heat pipes and exchangers keep heat-sensitive machines running by moving cold coolant to them and then pulling the heat away to an area that has no heat or lava to be re-cooled and reused. The other worlds could have smaller areas of heat (either naturally occurring or artifact from machines) but not as intense as Vulcanus.

[catma]

Bacon to my ears!

This was long overdue and I will want to play the original space exploration with this change, as well as the official factorio planets.

Why both? Gotta catch them all!

Why only after beacons improvements? Endgame optimizing challenge in both game variants will be better, and if not it'll support some modability to mitigate any errors in this one.

Factorio team is earning my few legendary quality dollars for this!!

[tsen]

Maybe i'm wrong not to worry, but i think the game will offer different optimal setup and combo of modules regarding different way of being cost-efficient, in ressources, or energy, or space occupied

It won't; in fact, it most likely removes the limited flexibility we currently have. Top-quality items will now be god, so, if the quality module gives a higher production of top-quality items over a speed or productivity module (or green, haha, like anyone ever uses green), then, since modules are strictly additive, it'll be all quality, all the time (void where prohibited). If not, quality modules would be pointless, so I assume they do.
Previously, I would *occasionally* put a speed module in place of a prod when I don't have beacons yet, since time may be more valuable than resources, but probably not anymore. I'm not even a crazy optimizer, but I'm not gonna gimp myself for no reason.

[mmmPI]

It won't; in fact, it most likely removes the limited flexibility we currently have.

This is not a fact, to me this is a speculation presented as a fact. Because unlike the devs who are tweakings the games and getting feedback on the consequences while having the full picture of the expansion, we are just speculating. I am not enclined to share it.

Top-quality items will now be god, so, if the quality module gives a higher production of top-quality items over a speed or productivity module (or green, haha, like anyone ever uses green), then, since modules are strictly additive, it'll be all quality, all the time (void where prohibited). If not, quality modules would be pointless, so I assume they do.

Do you plan to use quality science pack ? I was under the impression that quality was more to be used for the buildings than for the science pack, as such i don't see why 100% of ressources should get high quality and why use quality module everywhere. And even for those I don't know why i would make high quality refined concrete or high quality express splitters and those may be used in large amounts.

Previously, I would *occasionally* put a speed module in place of a prod when I don't have beacons yet, since time may be more valuable than resources, but probably not anymore. I'm not even a crazy optimizer, but I'm not gonna gimp myself for no reason.

As i read "probably", i realize that we are far from facts.

[Mimp]

I was driving my daughter (14) home from school and telling her about this FFF. After discussing it she started breaking out into song about beacons, beacons, beacons, a la Jack Black's Peaches from the Mario Movie: https://youtu.be/aW7bzd8uwyQ?t=57 It made my day, hopefully it makes someone else's too...

P.S.: this is the same daughter that created this masterpiece back in '17: https://imgur.com/gallery/urGX3

[tsen]

This is not a fact, to me this is a speculation presented as a fact. Because unlike the devs who are tweakings the games and getting feedback on the consequences while having the full picture of the expansion, we are just speculating. I am not enclined to share it.

"In fact" is an English idiom roughly equivalent to "moreso" or "furthermore", meaning that what you are about to say goes beyond what was previously said. It doesn't require that anything involved in the sentence be a fact. Everything I say is, implicitly, my opinion, by virtue of my having said it.

Do you plan to use quality science pack ? I was under the impression that quality was more to be used for the buildings than for the science pack, as such i don't see why 100% of ressources should get high quality and why use quality module everywhere. And even for those I don't know why i would make high quality refined concrete or high quality express splitters and those may be used in large amounts.

This is what I meant by "void where prohibited"; it was a jokey way to say "not counting cases where it might not make sense".

But top-quality express splitters probably split faster or something, so I dunno, I might. Even if they just have higher HP.

[XT-248]

tsen.

I went back and looked up the bonus from quality to various items (FFF #375). One thing that stood out was that beacons have lower energy drainage, which may or may not be enough to get me to use them.


I typically use primarily productivity modules in assemblers and maybe green modules for miners. I don't use beacons unless I need higher throughput from speed modules, which I don't often do since you can accomplish the same thing by adding more machines.

I might add quality modules to obtain some of the better or more valuable bonuses, but the overall strategy will likely remain the same going into Factorio 2.0.