Remove conveniences in favour of circuit networks

[snoutbug]

I was just getting back into factorio to prepare for the upcoming updates, when I realized that I never had a reason to use circuit networks before.

After researching a bit I found that no player has an actual use for circuit networks. Most players use them for:
- Oil refining, which i can see as an actual use.
- Limiting chest buffers (which can be done without circuit networks as long as you stay within stack bounds)
- ability to see warehouse stocks, which seems to be a minor benefit
- building big logic constructs that have no use to the average player
- turning off coal plants to allow accumulators to dischage, which leads me to the reason of this post:

Most use cases of circuit networks are either extremly trivial or extremly complicated. Things like limiting the coal supply to steam engines in order to maximise efficiency or toggling parts of your powergrid to allow solar panels to work during daytime is all managed automatically.
Same with chest sizes which can be changed at will without the need of circuit networks.
Machines rarely run at full power if its not needed. Most machines will power off automatically if they are not producing anything or are not needed to produce anything.

While all of these features are really convinient and you don't have to manage every detail of your factory, you also lose the ability to be creative with circuits (as an average player) while having the ability to acively impact the efficiency of your factory.

I would like those features to be reduced to a level where it starts to make sense to use circuit networks for these activities instead, for example the management of the powergrid or warehouse management.

[FuryoftheStars]

I'm not sure how good an idea this would be. There certainly needs to be a balance point, because if you make too many things require circuits, you're gonna alienate those who can't wrap their heads around them. On the otherhand, you don't want to make too many things that don't require them, because otherwise what's the point/where's the challenge?

[Tertius]

The fact you don't have a reason to use circuits don't mean nobody else hasn't a reason as well. From the functions you posted, I only use the oil refining thing - to balance cracking.
What I find essential is active balancing of chest filling on loading and unloading station, so trains are loaded and unloaded evenly. This way it cannot happen a train stays at an unloading station with 3 wagons already empty and 1 wagon not getting empty for a too long time.
The other thing that's extremely convenient with circuits is filling and unloading supply trains. I fill a train with an assortment of goods at the supply loading station, and each supply unloading station has a customized set of items to unload (configurable with a constant combinator).
What's also convenient is that I'm able to configure the things my mall should produce. You can let a mall run and blindly produce stuff until the chests are full, but you can also take the smart approach with circuits and build it so that you configure in some sets of constant combinators how many I want it produce for every item. So I don't waste resources for things I never use, and have resources for things I want to consume now.

Nothing of this is mandatory, but it creates convenience and increases the automation level of a factory. However, keep in mind there are people who don't have a mindset for mathematical expressions and boolean combinations with combinators. It's all greek to them, or if you think mathematically, there are people who understand the 4 basic arithmetic operations but will never understand what's beyond (roots, logarithms, trigonometrics, derivatives, integrals).
If you make circuits more relevant and make it more inconvenient for people who don't use it, you will offend these people for no reason.

[NineNine]

If you think that circuits aren't used enough in vanilla play, just play a mod. You 100% need circuits to complete Space Exploration, for example.

But, the beauty of Factorio is there are many different ways to play the game. Some people like circuits, some don't. Some like trains, some don't. There's no right answer. If you want to use circuits more, then use them. But forcing people to play the game in a particular way goes against the spirit of the game, in my opinion.

[astroshak]

A couple of uses for circuits not mentioned by the OP:
Measuring the output of an oil field;
Measuring the total amount of resources left under a group of miners;
Dynamically setting the Train Stop Limit.

I wire the Pumpjacks together and include at least one power pole, before I first send power to them. This tells me the initial Crude Oil level of the field (by mousing over the power pole). I then use that to determine how many Refineries this patch will support (in all cases it is Crude/20; but after depletion that value /5; if its after depletion but factoring in SM3’s and Mining Productivity tech it’s Crude X .65 / 20) in perpetuity without being supplemented by oil from another field.

Resources left in a patch is a good thing to know because you usually want trains to come when there is a full load of ore/stone/coal. But when the field has depleted to the point it will never have enough for a full load again, it helps to have a circuit that pretends there is more to load so the last train comes and removes the last bits of material.

Hand in hand with that is a more general setting the train stop limit based on either how much material is on hand to be loaded, or setting the limit based on how much available space for another load exists at the stop. It does not serve any real benefit to have a train 90% full of stone waiting to finish unloading at this stop when another stop needs two trainloads of the stuff. Setting the limit based on space available for unloading would let this train service more than just this stop with its stone (or iron, copper, whatever).

Circuits are almost completely optional. You don’t actually have to do any of these things. You don’t actually have to use circuits to control cracking either - order the red machines properly and the stuff self sorts. Circuits just make controlling these things easier for those intrepid enough to venture into the realm of circuitry Factorio style.

[Qon]

A mod that swaps priority on use of electric/steam, makes boilers consume 100% even without consumption and assembler-types to idle at 100% energy use would be interesting.

Accumulators could also waste energy by just voiding inflow energy when at 100%, and also be prioritized so nothing else gets energy before accumulators if it's possible to let accumulators still discharge when necessary. Then you would have to disconnect accumulators when you want to stop charging them, with some additional connected accumulators for measuring when the stored charge is necessary so that you can get get the main accumulators back online to meet demand.

Fluids outputs on machines could also spill (void) their output instead of idling.

[mmmPI]

I was just getting back into factorio to prepare for the upcoming updates, when I realized that I never had a reason to use circuit networks before.

I can understand/share this, i would say it is even "by design choice" that circuits networks are "optionnal" as in "you can finish the game without using them and getting stuck because of that". There is nothing that will "require" player to use them. My personnal feeling about it is more like "i 'lack' reasons to use circuits i always create them for myself using mods, or making machines that are not sctrictly required for the game but that i enjoy doing for the sake of it".

Most use cases of circuit networks are either extremly trivial or extremly complicated.

I think this is too harsh of a criticism, i would nuance it using the concept of granularity, which need to be "improved" maybe , or more explicitly proposed to the player. Setting limit on chest is trivial you only need to understand the math symbol , setting up oil conditions could be described as intermediate because you can use several logic conditions but it still can be visually debugged easily , and some other things as "complex" or even extremely complex, because you need deeper understanding and practice to make them. ( but then you don't NEED them in game).

It is difficult for a new player , or someone unfamiliar with circuit network to gauge the difficulty of something, there is very good reason for that, you don't know what you will end up using yet, or even if it possible to do something with circuits, whereas for experienced players, it is easier to gauge what can be done "easily" using only a few tricks, and what is "known" to be difficult, and how much difficult, or which things are "more difficult" than other things.

I think this can be pictured as difficulty level of dungeons for players, if you are not shown the difficulty level , you either win or lose inside the dungeons, but unless you happened to have picked something that is just your level or a little above, you would find it very easy, or very hard/impossible. Factorio circuits are like 10000 dungeons where i can understand why you would find things either very trivial or extremly complicated. But i think it's because there is no way to find the appropriate difficulty level of things that would allow to learn a step after another so that there is more and more things that appear trivial for you in the end.

It makes it difficult to propose things that are progressive in complexity, while still being optionnal all along regarding gameplay progression. I think in such case it is like a side quest, "learning about circuits", where when playing, you can "add" circuits for a pupose, even if it's not strictly necessary. And maybe the next time you will try to use them in another place where it's a little more involved than the previous playthrough, for something you know you can use an alternative without circuit in case you end up not suceeding at the "new" attempt and ruin your game or get stuck.

I would like those features to be reduced to a level where it starts to make sense to use circuit networks for these activities instead, for example the management of the powergrid or warehouse management.

I think those example can be used as side quest, as it is possible to use circuit network to manage power switch and accumulators or manage fuel/electricity in various way of potentially increasing complexity to. If this is a side quest maybe what could be of value would be a guide through the content to illustrate granularity like :
1/100 using power switch connected to accumulator
2/100 using pump condition based on accumulator charge
3/100 using pump condition and power switch based on steam reserve
??/100 making power display with lamp and alerts system for low power
??/100 using solar and nuclear and solid fuel exactly as wanted
??/100 other thing that you may think off
??/100 other thing you have no idea it exist but may be commonly used by some other players
90/100 using thousands combinators to create an AI that will distribute the fuel with drones in between you many nuclear plants and make an angry face with lamps when there is no power while telling you with speaker how many hours you have left before you need more uranium because it is also connected to the mining outpost

So that it doesn't "look" as much too easy/ too hard type of situation and it keep making sense all along.

The risk with making things "require more circuits" is as mentionned alienating players that do not use circuits, because too difficult or not fun doesnt really matter "removing conveniences in favour of circuit networks" would have those negative effects where i prefer the philosophy of offering more conveniences/possibilities with circuits networks, which i have seen plenty in the recent FFF. Sure amongst them some are very niche and won't be often used in game, but they are part of those 10000 dungeons that if explored in an certain order allows for learning with granularity, step by step in difficulty i think. Some of them are those "intermediate difficulty" and hopefully also giving "more conveniences" so that they are not just niche/rarely used but "make more sense" as better "introduced in the gameplay progression".

"Managing warehouse" depend on what you call a warehouse, "managing all chests quantity inside the factory with circuit" is a very granular process, you can add 1 chest to the previous "warehouse", and then have a little more complex architecture, and a little more and a little more with some gaps when you introduce new systems or filter or separate some chest with belts or trains or robots and so on. And even though circuits are never "required", they can always be used to create different ways of distributing the ressources in the chests.

[Qon]

Ultracube: Age of Cube gives you many different reasons to use circuit networks. It's an amazing mod if it's the kind of challenge you are ready to pick up.

[Impatient]

...
I would like those features to be reduced to a level where it starts to make sense to use circuit networks ...

I wonder why you ask this. Do you want to impose a bigger challenge in vanilla on yourself? I mean, you can, as you explained yourself, use th CN to drastically improve the efficiency of the factory. That could be the challenge for you.

Thing is, i guess a lot of casual players don't understand the CN. And to force them to use it, would just make them give up.

(As everyone is posting their use cases here, so I also want to mention one in particular: I switch off power to production lines in late game megafactories. For one, it preserves power because beacons always consume the same amount of power - also if nothing is manufactured - and inserters also consume power when they are idle. But above all, it saves UPS if nothing is manufactured, as inserters without power do not get updated).

[quyxkh]

no player has an actual use for circuit networks

Clocking inserters and logistics requests to cut ups cost per production. Kovarex buffer control to get your '235 production up and running ASAP. Sushi-belt malls and resupply. Compact multiple-item belt cleaners. More for shits-n-giggles but hey: maximizing fueled-smelter array density by clocking exactly enough fuel onto the supply belt.

[MeduSalem]

While I like doing stuff with circuit networks, I do get that they can drive fear into people. The Factorio way of automation is very flexible, but because of it very difficult to get into for beginners and outright "nope" for many.

So I would have to say "nah" to making it more annoying for people by default.


What I would accept and find a fun challenge however if the amount of circuit network stuff you need to do would scale with the difficulty setting & customizable in the map options.

At higher difficulty the factory might need to be manually automated entirely or otherwise it keeps on doing things you don't want. Spilling/voiding items/fluids, backups, burning through fuel and all that craziness. You would have to control almost everything. So your expansion would have to be very carefully thought through or it will end in a disaster. ^^

I am sure that that would be fun for more veteran players while not overburdening newbies because it would be opt-in. If you chose to go that doomed route of eternal item spillage suffering then because you are doing it to yourself and not because the game by default forces you through it.

[aka13]

To be honest, regarding the complexity of the circuits, when it comes to basic stuff like rs-latches, "disable when more than" etc, I must say factorio easily is the most user-friendly system.
I recently played minecraft again, and automated some steam turbines, man, it was hell, especially signal levels falling off with distance, and all other digital-analog shenanigans.
ONI comes close to factorio, but is still more convoluted, than factorio.

[Tertius]

I admit, every time I see the words of this topic title ("remove convenience ...") reappearing in the active topics I'm offended. Really. Computers were made to make things easier for the people. They're the manifestation of convenience. And now there is someone who asks to remove existing ease of use from a computer program to force people to use some other part of that program they might not understand well? No! That's wrong! I despise games who do this.