Friday Facts #387 - Swimming in lava

[mmmPI]

That second step is needed to obtain water for oil cracking, unless there are some unannounced changes to that. Hopefully they do something with water recycling like what you describe too though.

I was under the impression that Vulcanus would have no coal and no oil, but i was wrong, there is coal, but no oil, so oil cracking is still possible which require liquid water but that would be after coal liquefaction, which require steam, but using 500°C steam is a waste compared to using 100°C steam in such case so i think there will be something related to this.

Water seem like it would be a very interesting ressource to manage, and i'm expecting a cold planet too after seeing the hot one, and as it was mentionned in the thread something related to ice.

[varundevan]

may be i would have missed it ,
I get that molten lava is from the pit directly , but how do we get the molten iron or molten copper ??

[malecord]

may be i would have missed it ,
I get that molten lava is from the pit directly , but how do we get the molten iron or molten copper ??

In one of the animation there is a foundry sucking in lava and outputting stone and two fluids, one orange like (copper) and one blue like (iron).

I guess the color scheme there is tricky and subject to revision. That is to find something that is both intuitive (molten iron is clearly not blue, intutively blue is water) but also readeable/informative (every molten stuff is same color as lava, so that would impossible to distinguish).

[varundevan]

may be i would have missed it ,
I get that molten lava is from the pit directly , but how do we get the molten iron or molten copper ??

In one of the animation there is a foundry sucking in lava and outputting stone and two fluids, one orange like (copper) and one blue like (iron).

I guess the color scheme there is tricky and subject to revision. That is to find something that is both intuitive (molten iron is clearly not blue, intutively blue is water) but also readeable/informative (every molten stuff is same color as lava, so that would impossible to distinguish).

hmmm... in that animation , both of them looked like stones , appeared like burnt and unburnt stones to me.
still not able to figure out , how one gets molten iron from iron ore.

[Inscius]

hmmm... in that animation , both of them looked like stones , appeared like burnt and unburnt stones to me.
still not able to figure out , how one gets molten iron from iron ore.

From the blog post:

Recipes and resources

Apart from these two structures and tungsten processing, Vulcanus has some more differences compared to Nauvis.

• Sulfuric acid can be mined directly.
• There is no water on Vulcanus. Water is instead created from Sulfuric acid.
• There is no oil but coal is plentiful, and we have moved Coal liquefaction to Vulcanus, also adding a simplified version which doesn't need heavy oil to kickstart it.
• There is no uranium at all.
• Lava is used as a resource, and processed in the Foundry into molten iron and copper, with stone as a byproduct. The planet has no natural stone/iron ore/copper ore deposits as a result.
• Calcite is a new resource used as a cleaning/purifying ingredient in various recipes like sulfuric acid neutralization, lava processing, or melting iron/copper ore.

So, lava is processed with calcite in the foundry to get stone, molten iron, and molten copper. I don't think melting ore was demonstrated in any of the animations, but it's presumably done in the foundry.

[malecord]

may be i would have missed it ,
I get that molten lava is from the pit directly , but how do we get the molten iron or molten copper ??

In one of the animation there is a foundry sucking in lava and outputting stone and two fluids, one orange like (copper) and one blue like (iron).

I guess the color scheme there is tricky and subject to revision. That is to find something that is both intuitive (molten iron is clearly not blue, intutively blue is water) but also readeable/informative (every molten stuff is same color as lava, so that would impossible to distinguish).

hmmm... in that animation , both of them looked like stones , appeared like burnt and unburnt stones to me.
still not able to figure out , how one gets molten iron from iron ore.

That animation turns lava + calcite into molten iron + molten copper + stone.

Melting ores was not shown, but it was written that it will be possible to do once back on Navius. On Vulcanus, there are no iron or copper deposits so that receipe is useless and not applicable.

[varundevan]

may be i would have missed it ,
I get that molten lava is from the pit directly , but how do we get the molten iron or molten copper ??

In one of the animation there is a foundry sucking in lava and outputting stone and two fluids, one orange like (copper) and one blue like (iron).

I guess the color scheme there is tricky and subject to revision. That is to find something that is both intuitive (molten iron is clearly not blue, intutively blue is water) but also readeable/informative (every molten stuff is same color as lava, so that would impossible to distinguish).

hmmm... in that animation , both of them looked like stones , appeared like burnt and unburnt stones to me.
still not able to figure out , how one gets molten iron from iron ore.

That animation turns lava + calcite into molten iron + molten copper + stone.

Melting ores was not shown, but it was written that it will be possible to do once back on Navius. On Vulcanus, there are no iron or copper deposits so that receipe is useless and not applicable.

Thanks for the explanation!
wondering , how foundry will get heat in liquid form in Navius, like it gets from Lava in Vulcanus.
(May be steam , but no foundry works on steam.)

[FuryoftheStars]

may be i would have missed it ,
I get that molten lava is from the pit directly , but how do we get the molten iron or molten copper ??

In one of the animation there is a foundry sucking in lava and outputting stone and two fluids, one orange like (copper) and one blue like (iron).

I guess the color scheme there is tricky and subject to revision. That is to find something that is both intuitive (molten iron is clearly not blue, intutively blue is water) but also readeable/informative (every molten stuff is same color as lava, so that would impossible to distinguish).

hmmm... in that animation , both of them looked like stones , appeared like burnt and unburnt stones to me.
still not able to figure out , how one gets molten iron from iron ore.

That animation turns lava + calcite into molten iron + molten copper + stone.

Melting ores was not shown, but it was written that it will be possible to do once back on Navius. On Vulcanus, there are no iron or copper deposits so that receipe is useless and not applicable.

Thanks for the explanation!
wondering , how foundry will get heat in liquid form in Navius, like it gets from Lava in Vulcanus.
(May be steam , but no foundry works on steam.)

Different recipes, different inputs and outputs.

[Freddy404]

wondering , how foundry will get heat in liquid form in Navius, like it gets from Lava in Vulcanus.
(May be steam , but no foundry works on steam.)

Maybe power consumption will depend on the recipe?

Or the ore -> liquid recipes use regular fuel, so it's like a smelter with extra steps in that case?

[malecord]

wondering , how foundry will get heat in liquid form in Navius, like it gets from Lava in Vulcanus.
(May be steam , but no foundry works on steam.)

Maybe power consumption will depend on the recipe?

Or the ore -> liquid recipes use regular fuel, so it's like a smelter with extra steps in that case?

It could be everything since it's a game.

But taking inspiration from real world, foundries are not electricity friendly. Coal can be an option, but for a 0 emission alternative, if they don't introduce hydrogen (dangerous since then it make sense to apply it everywhere) the obvious option is nuclear. I bet on a nuclear powered foundry.

[DiegoPro77]

Hi, I dunno if smo has already asked this question and you have already answered in a reply on in a FFF and I missed it, but let me ask: will the creation of custom worlds be possible for modders?
("The hell are you not satisfied enough?" --> "I'm only here for science purposes ")

[Unknow0059]

And because we want to make specifically the rocket part production easier, the Foundry can also craft the normal recipe of Low density structures.

This is very arbitrary. At least make this recipe need lava.
It's bizarre being able to craft this one normal item but nothing else.

[Locane]

I know I'm late to the party, but this Big Mining drill described in the blog post is OP AF.

50% increase to the total resource in a mine? 5x mining speed? Larger mine area? AND 4 module slots to top it all off?

Ignoring the absolute clownery that is Quality modules, are we planning on removing mining efficiency from the tech tree? Because that combined with the resource chance is going to be crazy.

The Big Mining Drill in SE does most of this, but not the resource drain portion. This needs to be turned down before release - why would I ever build another iron mine since it will basically never run out with quality modules knocking it down to 17% drain?

[GregoriusT]

Yeah and because of its insane range you can fit a LOT of things between Miners and then add Speed Beacons inbetween too!

This whole thing makes Rich Resource Spots much less valuable to acquire, as Mining Productivity, Mining "Efficiency" from Quality and the Big Drill, and Modules can make an Ore Spot last a LOT of time.

You can basically do direct to train Mining before getting into endgame Research.

That or you can just make Map Generation on low richness settings to fix the difficulty yourself.

It definitely broadens the options for people who just want ONE Mining Outpost that lasts practically forever, so that they dont have to rebuild them constantly.

[Cerberus]

So with the larger digging radius of the miners, that'll leave a bit of dead area between two different ore types for those that don't like mixed ore belts. Could there be an addition of ore filtering for the higher-tier miners as a QoL addon? It'd be a bit jarring to have so much open space filled with resources between miners of two different mines when the ore patches are touching. I know filtering on belts is a thing but that can easily cause clogging issues if one resource isn't used as much as the other, like if my iron mine is touching a stone mine, and I don't use stone as much as iron I'd rather not have my iron mine shut down cause stone is backed up. With the larger radius I can see this becoming a bigger issue, so solving it at the miner itself would circumvent a lot of headache and issues.

I don't think a filter on a miner would be a good thing. Mixed ore patches offer a challenge that would get solved too trivially this way. There are ways to circumvent the clogging (splitter setups with priority input lanes). I fear adding a filter to miners would solve one of the few puzzle elements the game has, bringing it closer to a pure automation grind.

[Cerberus]

I know I'm late to the party, but this Big Mining drill described in the blog post is OP AF.

50% increase to the total resource in a mine? 5x mining speed? Larger mine area? AND 4 module slots to top it all off?

Ignoring the absolute clownery that is Quality modules, are we planning on removing mining efficiency from the tech tree? Because that combined with the resource chance is going to be crazy.

The Big Mining Drill in SE does most of this, but not the resource drain portion. This needs to be turned down before release - why would I ever build another iron mine since it will basically never run out with quality modules knocking it down to 17% drain?

It definitely broadens the options for people who just want ONE Mining Outpost that lasts practically forever, so that they dont have to rebuild them constantly.

Aren't you guys exaggerating? You all have no idea how much resources you will need. The expansion will be longer than the original game by a huge margin.
A 50% increase in resources is significant but does not mean you can just setup one outpost and sleep for the rest of the game.
Only if you needed like only less than 2 resource patches in the original game, does it mean you can now set up one outpost and be done with it, if you wanted to beat the original game again instead of the expansion again, that is.
Also, you act as if you just crashed your spaceship and can plop down legendary big mining drills like it is nothing. Before you can even unlock the highest tier quality, it will be very late game to begin with (the devs already said), and it is going to be a huge resource investment to get to that point of crafting a legendary drill anyway (which depletes your existing resource patches...)
Also, the fact you can only be on one planet at once (before spidertron), demands different solutions to make mining patches last longer.
I for one think the devs know exactly what they are doing.

[GregoriusT]

The Problem with the Big Drill is not really the resource drain modifier (that one is actually fine) but the insane coverage it has, enabling a LOT of beacon based shenanigans that were simply not logical to use with the normal Mining Drill, unless you wanted to shift the Mining Drills over by a few tiles, halfway through the life cycle of the Ore Patch (like Burner Miners would force you to).

This Big Drill will output Resources so damn fast it will feel like cheating to use it. It is simply way too good even compared to a Legendary Quality Regular Mining Drill filled with Speed 3 Modules. This thing already fills up an entire Blue Belt Lane all by itself, add Beacons to it and oh boy will you not be able to keep up with its Output ever, unless you do direct to Train Insertion. Not to mention that with expensive Mining Drills, Beacons make a LOT more sense too, since they are cheaper than placing down more Miners.

Sure there should be an incentive for the Big Drill, but this is a slight bit überkill if you ask me.

It is also quite clear that the Expansion overall will not use all that much more Resources than the Base Game (see 10x cheaper Rocket launch costs), at least when it comes to the mandatory parts of Progression that specifically happens on Nauvis itself (not counting the repeated progression on other Planets).

A Default Settings sized Starter Ore Patch Cluster is enough to research and launch a few Rockets within 8 hours, it is not much that you need. You learn a lot from doing Spoonless, and looking at how many Ores you have consumed at the time of launching the Rocket. It is quite fun being resourceful like that, though I wouldn't recommend the stress of being on the clock...

[aka13]

The Problem with the Big Drill is not really the resource drain modifier (that one is actually fine) but the insane coverage it has, enabling a LOT of beacon based shenanigans that were simply not logical to use with the normal Mining Drill, unless you wanted to shift the Mining Drills over by a few tiles, halfway through the life cycle of the Ore Patch (like Burner Miners would force you to).

This Big Drill will output Resources so damn fast it will feel like cheating to use it. It is simply way too good even compared to a Legendary Quality Regular Mining Drill filled with Speed 3 Modules. This thing already fills up an entire Blue Belt Lane all by itself, add Beacons to it and oh boy will you not be able to keep up with its Output ever, unless you do direct to Train Insertion. Not to mention that with expensive Mining Drills, Beacons make a LOT more sense too, since they are cheaper than placing down more Miners.

Sure there should be an incentive for the Big Drill, but this is a slight bit überkill if you ask me.

It is also quite clear that the Expansion overall will not use all that much more Resources than the Base Game (see 10x cheaper Rocket launch costs), at least when it comes to the mandatory parts of Progression that specifically happens on Nauvis itself (not counting the repeated progression on other Planets).

A Default Settings sized Starter Ore Patch Cluster is enough to research and launch a few Rockets within 8 hours, it is not much that you need. You learn a lot from doing Spoonless, and looking at how many Ores you have consumed at the time of launching the Rocket. It is quite fun being resourceful like that, though I wouldn't recommend the stress of being on the clock...

I still consider deathworld marathon "the way it's meant to be played", and it's nowhere near "too much" for that playstyle.
In my personal biased opinion, balancing around the spoon and the speedrunners would be rather boring. You oughta know, with the way you balanced fusion reactors in the old times.

For vanilla economics, if the large drill is simply somewhere higher up in research, it just allows you to automate away the boring manual claiming of patches.

[Cerberus]

The Problem with the Big Drill is not really the resource drain modifier (that one is actually fine) but the insane coverage it has, enabling a LOT of beacon based shenanigans that were simply not logical to use with the normal Mining Drill, unless you wanted to shift the Mining Drills over by a few tiles, halfway through the life cycle of the Ore Patch (like Burner Miners would force you to).

This Big Drill will output Resources so damn fast it will feel like cheating to use it. It is simply way too good even compared to a Legendary Quality Regular Mining Drill filled with Speed 3 Modules. This thing already fills up an entire Blue Belt Lane all by itself, add Beacons to it and oh boy will you not be able to keep up with its Output ever, unless you do direct to Train Insertion. Not to mention that with expensive Mining Drills, Beacons make a LOT more sense too, since they are cheaper than placing down more Miners.

You may be able to mine crazy fast, but that will deplete your resources faster too. If you need for example three iron ore patches normally to satisfy the demand of your base, and you can do with one big one now and legendary big mining drills, it will just mean you will need to set up a new outpost three times faster than you normally would.

It is also quite clear that the Expansion overall will not use all that much more Resources than the Base Game (see 10x cheaper Rocket launch costs), at least when it comes to the mandatory parts of Progression that specifically happens on Nauvis itself (not counting the repeated progression on other Planets).

How is that clear? The reason the rocket costs 1/10 of the vanilla price is because you have to launch many. I doubt 10 rockets will even be enough to finish the game as you will have to set up an interplanetary logistics system with rockets transporting ore and other materials between planets.
I also don't see how it is relevant you only count progression on Nauvis itself for your argument, as you don't finish the expansion after launching a rocket. When you first launch a rocket, you will not even have big mining drill and high quality modules anyway.

A Default Settings sized Starter Ore Patch Cluster is enough to research and launch a few Rockets within 8 hours, it is not much that you need. You learn a lot from doing Spoonless, and looking at how many Ores you have consumed at the time of launching the Rocket. It is quite fun being resourceful like that, though I wouldn't recommend the stress of being on the clock...

Speedrunners yeah, but they discovered how to do it after a lot of training. There is no way I could have done it on my first tries (I have only beat the game twice), and I like to have my fancy artillery and all.

[GregoriusT]

You may be able to mine crazy fast, but that will deplete your resources faster too. If you need for example three iron ore patches normally to satisfy the demand of your base, and you can do with one big one now and legendary big mining drills, it will just mean you will need to set up a new outpost three times faster than you normally would.

1.5 times faster, not 3 times faster, you forgot the thing depletes slower.

That and by that point you can easily just go far enough out to get a better suitable Ore Patch with 2-3 Million Ore, that will most likely last you until the infinitely repeatable Sciences.

I like the concept of the Big Drill being all around better than the normal one, but as it is presented right now it is way too powerful. It would already have been amazing with a 9x9 range. At least then you would have had a nice puzzle with how to fit Beacons and Rail Lines into the Ore Patch, instead of the 13x13, where you can fit Rails and Beacons trivially.

I know from past Modpacks just how powerful such a Mining Range is, and how trivial it is to work with any range that sticks out more than 2 tiles from the Miner.

That is why it feels a bit cheaty, because the Big Drill loses all the nice Puzzle Aspects of the Game.

How is that clear? The reason the rocket costs 1/10 of the vanilla price is because you have to launch many. I doubt 10 rockets will even be enough to finish the game as you will have to set up an interplanetary logistics system with rockets transporting ore and other materials between planets.

In order to get the space platform self sufficient using the tentacles, crushers, smelters, assemblers and a few inserters, you will not need much in regards of Rockets, the rest can be used to send Modules, Science Packs and Red/Blue Circuits up to space, which all have custom weights so they are even lighter in order to be able to send much more of specifically those things up to Space.

I also don't see how it is relevant you only count progression on Nauvis itself for your argument, as you don't finish the expansion after launching a rocket. When you first launch a rocket, you will not even have big mining drill and high quality modules anyway.

What i meant by that was not "Progression until Rocket Launch" I mean ALL parts of progression that take place on Nauvis specifically, so even while you're on another Planet, Nauvis is still churning out the original Science Packs.

The other Planets and Space itself have their own special Logic, which will make Outposting a LOT different (otherwise it would be "boring"). That is why I did not want to count them in.

Speedrunners yeah, but they discovered how to do it after a lot of training. There is no way I could have done it on my first tries (I have only beat the game twice), and I like to have my fancy artillery and all.

Yep, I like to have fancy stuff too, I tend to research all technologies of my current Science Pack Level before going to the next, unless there is something from a higher Level that I really need. This will ofcourse make me end up building an Iron Outpost.

(okay i say "will" as if my recent strategy isn't to run into biter infested territory from the very beginning and build at a cluster of richer ore spots that were visible on the map preview... this game wasted thousands of hours of my life...)