Diminishing returns on parallel research

Ideas that are too old (too many things have changed since) and ones which won't be implemented for certain reasons or if there are obviously better suggestions.

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Rwn
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Diminishing returns on parallel research

Post by Rwn »

TL;DR
Soft-capping research speed: The more science labs are working at the same time, the less each lab contributes to research.

What ?
Currently research can be parallelized with no efficiency loss: build 10 labs, tech will be researched 10 times faster than with 1 lab.
Also, no matter how many labs you have, research will cost exactly the same in number of flasks. More labs means faster research and that's it.

The idea would be to implement a diminishing return on lab efficiency when more than 1 lab is actively researching.
Of course, each additional lab would still have a positive marginal contribution to research, but not 100%.
A good function could be efficiency depending on the square root of number of labs (each additional lab is contributing less and less, but there's no theoretical cap to research speed).

Example :
1 lab working alone would consume 1 flask/second and contribute 1 flask/second to the research
2 labs working in parallel would consume 2 flasks/second (1 each) but contribute only 1.4 flask/second to the research
3 labs working in parallel would consume 3 flasks/second (1 each) but contribute only 1.7 flask/second to the research
4 labs working in parallel would consume 4 flasks/second (1 each) but contribute only 2 flask/second to the research
Etc.

In other words, the trade-off for increased research speed would be spending ("wasting") research flasks.

This could either be default vanilla behavior, or an option at game start.

Why ?
Past the very early game, adding new labs to consume more flasks in parallel is cheap and easy.

The consequence is that reseach speed per flask doesn't matter much: you can research almost as fast as you want by adding more labs to research in parallel.
The real bottleneck, what really matters to determine research speed, is how fast your factory can produce the required flasks. You just need to install enough labs to eat your flasks faster than they are produced and you've reached your maximum research speed.

TL;DR: Research speed is essentially determined by how fast you can manufacture flasks.


This creates an balancing issue: it's difficult to calibrate research speed to player skill AND in multiplayer games.

At any point in a game (early, mid or late), skilled players are able to churn out several times more flasks per second than a new player.
In multiplayer it's even more obvious : X players could theoretically produce X times as many flasks by working each on their side; in practice they'll likely still produce flasks several times faster than a single player at the same technology level.

The research cost (which is essentially dictating the pace of the game = how fast you'll have access to new machines and options) is hard to properly calibrate for all games :
- Either it's too high and it's frustrating to wait a long time for new research to unlock
- Or it's too low and you discover things faster than you can use them

The suggestion would alleviate the difficulty to calibrate research cost and help setting a relatively consistent global game pace:
If you're good or playing multi, increasing flask manufacturing speed will still make research advance faster, but not linearly.
In other words, the general speed at which you progress through a game would scale with how well you're doing.
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Re: Diminishing returns on parallel research

Post by Qon »

This must be the worst idea I've ever heard of so far. *checking date* Hmm, did they move April to December recently?
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Re: Diminishing returns on parallel research

Post by FuryoftheStars »

Rwn wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 4:43 pm
TL;DR
Soft-capping research speed: The more science labs are working at the same time, the less each lab contributes to research.
I do not support this.

Why? Because of infinite research techs.
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Re: Diminishing returns on parallel research

Post by mcmase »

Surprising to see such harsh response in an ideas thread, for Factorio nonetheless. But don't worry, seems to be the norm for many other ideas as well, just thought I'd chime in here.

I too have the issue where research stalls as I build a new science pack production, but since I build large, once the new packs are coming in, I get a whole bunch of research done much faster than I can implement all the new tech.

But to me, that's just how the game flows. As mentioned, infinite research wouldn't be viable with this solution, as though the cap is technically infinite, the diminishing returns would make even the largest factories incapable of researching many of the infinite techs past a certain point.

Maybe there is a solution to this issue of rapid research but I don't think this is it. You also have to consider speedrunners or experts who actually CAN implement tech as fast as it unlocks.
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Re: Diminishing returns on parallel research

Post by Illiander42 »

mcmase wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2023 3:19 pm Maybe there is a solution to this issue of rapid research but I don't think this is it. You also have to consider speedrunners or experts who actually CAN implement tech as fast as it unlocks.
I'm no speedrunner (I average 14hrs for a vanilla rocket if I focus it) but I frequently have everything built and ready before the tech unlocks. Anyone with decent blueprints will do this.

The thing that slows me down is hooking up new mines.
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Re: Diminishing returns on parallel research

Post by computeraddict »

Rwn wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 4:43 pm The research cost (which is essentially dictating the pace of the game = how fast you'll have access to new machines and options) is hard to properly calibrate for all games :
- Either it's too high and it's frustrating to wait a long time for new research to unlock
- Or it's too low and you discover things faster than you can use them
Having experienced both of these in vanilla, and having experienced them in every overhaul mod I've tried, they both always boil down to skill and familiarity issues on my part. (Except for Seablock, which is highly resource bottlenecked in the early game on... every resource.)

Once a player gets over the skill and familiarity hurdle for setting up a factory, the bottleneck shifts to skill and familiarity with acquiring more resources.

If you're having problem A, it's addressed by just expanding your production of science.

If you're having problem B, it's addressed by diverting resources to infrastructure from science or expanding infrastructure production.

Both solutions are things you learn, and it's part of the factory management. I strongly dislike the idea of softcapped science throughput. It's effectively no different than just setting the cost multiplier higher, which players are free to do on their own during map creation if they find the default costs too easy.
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Re: Diminishing returns on parallel research

Post by MEOWMI »

I do not think this is a good idea for balancing the "new players researching things faster than they can go through them" phenomenon. Also, don't punish players needlessly just because they can go fast.

I would even argue, that reseraching too fast is also one of Factorio's logistical challenges. Basically, you overbuilt research (or often more likely, you haven't been able to scale up production elsewhere). A core part of the gameplay, is that there are always things to work on, and the factory may sit still until some new production is completed. It's up to the player to find out how to best accomplish things, and that includes the time required to build the factory, which is often the bottleneck.
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Re: Diminishing returns on parallel research

Post by Soul-Burn »

2.0 will alleviate the issue of researching too fast with the introduction of trigger technologies. You would have to produce or mine a certain item to unlock a branch of the tech tree, which means you can't research things before you can use them.

In general Factorio is a game about linear power increase. Want double production? Place down double the machines. Any sort of diminishing returns on basic machines is antithetical to the game's design.
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Re: Diminishing returns on parallel research

Post by EustaceCS »

Rwn wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 4:43 pm
Why ?
Past the very early game, adding new labs to consume more flasks in parallel is cheap and easy.

The consequence is that reseach speed per flask doesn't matter much: you can research almost as fast as you want by adding more labs to research in parallel.
The real bottleneck, what really matters to determine research speed, is how fast your factory can produce the required flasks. You just need to install enough labs to eat your flasks faster than they are produced and you've reached your maximum research speed.

TL;DR: Research speed is essentially determined by how fast you can manufacture flasks.
I don't see why it is a problem.
What's the next suggestion? Limit Rocket Fuel production?
There's a problem with it: it consumes nothing but Oil, Water and Electricity to make. You can stockpile indefinite amount of Rocket Fuel from a single oil spill. Especially if that dedicated Rocket Fuel mini-factory is powered by Solar panels only. And you can add more of such free Fuel mini-factories to obtain indefinite amount of fuel.
Which trivializes whole fuel management aspect of the game.
(and, with enough space and creativity, makes Nuclear Reactors obsolete)
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Re: Diminishing returns on parallel research

Post by Qon »

EustaceCS wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2023 8:52 am (and, with enough space and creativity, makes Nuclear Reactors obsolete)
How is this an issue with the game? Seems like good game design, giving players problems they can overcome with creativity.
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Re: Diminishing returns on parallel research

Post by EustaceCS »

Qon wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2023 9:36 am How is this an issue with the game? Seems like good game design, giving players problems they can overcome with creativity.
Exactly!
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Re: Diminishing returns on parallel research

Post by Nemoricus »

Research already has three sets of diminishing returns associated with it.

1. Techs get more expensive in terms of science pack count

2. Later techs take more time per set of packs to research.

3. Each lab may contribute the same amount of research speed in absolute terms but each additional one is worth relatively less.

Changing the way labs work doesn’t really seem necessary given these.
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Re: Diminishing returns on parallel research

Post by Rseding91 »

Saying things in terms of absolutes has come back to bite me a few times but in this case I'm quote comfortable in saying: this will not happen. Moving to outdated/not-implemented.
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