Friday Facts #384 - Combinators 2.0

[kizrak]

Super awesome FFF!

Also love all of the ideas. And an extra plus one to some clocks, maybe a mode of the constant combinator, that can tell:
● surface/planet time of day (in ticks)
● total game time (in ticks) (to allow sync between planets/surfaces/spaceships)
● daylight sensor for current surface/planet (brighter planets should have bigger values)

Also love the idea of a SR latch mode as part of one of the combinators; and vector math idea.

I really love the idea of having every signal icon also showing the signal's value. If that is the case, then is this screenshot suggest that signal `A` is missing a display value?

pfECD4DpJV.png (450.15 KiB) Viewed 3401 times

Or do zero values not show up even when a specific signal type is selected? (IMO, if a specific signal type has been selected, even a zero should be subscripted.)

So many great things! Thank again for all of the amazing features to look forward to!

[Blacky007]

Hello Wube Team
there are some points you need to take into count during the development.
there are Colorwiremods that change the color of the cable - e.g. I have a mode that uses blue and yellow cables.
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/CustomCircuitColors
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/ColorblindCircuitNetwork
how do you want to handles those mods?

The Selector combinator:
It would be great to have a countercombinator to get like - count a definded number every tick of the game. start with "x" until "y" then start again.

signals with a value over 2,3billion turn into negative values - will this be fixed with 2.0 as well?
Greetings Blacky

[Ironmonk]

I think it would be better to include the "stack size" directly on to the Arithmetic Combinator, so you can read a signal input and multiply it by its stack size directly, without the need for one additional entity.

[Brathahn]

Great Changes!
Also please add "missing materials for construction" to roboport circuit network output.

[Zaflis]

Some time ago I was thinking about how to enumerate all non-zero signals in a circuit. I thought that I didn’t have enough knowledge about combinators, but it turned out that this is now almost impossible. But at least it will be like this until version 2.0

Not sure i understand what you mean by enumerating, you can use "Each" signal to parse all individual values and output "Each" as well if they pass a condition. Also value 0 doesn't get passed into the circuits, it is "no signal". You can match if something is 0 but if it's true that means "empty signal is 0".

Examples you can do in 1.0:
- Have 10 iron plates, 20 copper plates and -40 steel plates in red circuit wire.
- Decider combinator with "Each > 0, Output Each input value", will send out "10 iron plates, 20 copper plates".
- Decider combinator with "Each > 0, Output Each as 1", will send out "1 iron plates, 1 copper plates".
- Decider combinator with "Each > 0, Output "A" input value", will send out "30 A".
- Decider combinator with "Each <= 0, Output Each input value", will send out "-40 steel plates".
- Decider combinator with "Each > -100, Output S input value", will send out "-10 S".

[Saphira123456]

I'll be honest here: I have never used the signal network and am entirely unlikely to start because there's no tutorials on it and it is overwhelmingly complex.

I've also never used robots, plopping everything down by hand.

Robotics and the signal network are, at least to me, the most difficult and cumbersome parts of the game to learn and use, since there's no tutorials or any other way to do so. They are also pretty much useless, there's literally no need to use them to complete the game in 1.1. I don't see why they were even included in the base game, in the first place.

If the signal network feature was eliminated from the game entirely in 2.0, nothing of value would be lost because there's no legitimate need for it. That's my opinion on this FF and on the circuit network in general.

[Qon]

Since the scope of the Selector combinator is quite broad, there is also room for further functions we could give it, if you have some ideas, we would welcome them.

The recipe combinator from the Crafting Combinator mod would be great to have, send recipe signal in, get ingredient cost out! And the crafting combinator functionality as well, being able to switch assembler recipe with combinator. The 2.0 update has item slot ghosts so construction robots should be able to take out the stuff in ingredient and output slots before switching the mode, eliminating the issue of what to do with items already in the machine when it is supposed to change recipe.

And since you asked, add Recursive Blueprints+ deployer (and add functionality to make blueprints with circuit conditions as well) and scanner and PE Stringy Train Stops Redux functionality to the game as well

It's great that we will be able to do everything in that's possible to do with the character in remote view as well in 2.0. Next step is to also let us do all remote view orders to bots with circuit signals.

[FutureSpec]

This all looks like good stuff. I barely used circuit networks in past play-throughs; these QoL and UX changes might get me to use them more often.

[melind]

I'm really happy to hear about these changes. In particular I've been playing the SE mod so having the ability to place multiple AND/OR in a single decider would have been huge. I also make use of stack size calculations for my train setups so being able to pull that directly is great.

I think in terms of new combinators functions there are a few things I find myself doing quite often that would be great to simplify/reduce the number of combinators:

• SR Latches - I use these a lot with fluid and power handling where I need to change behavior until the system stabilizes again
• Case conditions - Mostly to compress multiple if/then combinators into a single combinator that could handle all cases in on
  e spot (I mostly use these for stripping out specific signals from large networks)
• Clocks - There are few clock options that come to mind. First is regular clock timings (pulse signal every x ticks), but I'd also like to see things like signal extenders (eg, turn a pulse signal from an inserter swing or clock into a 60000 MS control signal), or a signal shortener where it can convert a sustained signal into a shorter duration or a pulse.

All these can be handled with combinators today but it'd be super nice to streamline these functions.

[Qon]

I'll be honest here: I have never used the signal network and am entirely unlikely to start because there's no tutorials on it and it is overwhelmingly complex.

Wrong. There are tutorials.

I've also never used robots, plopping everything down by hand.

Robotics and the signal network are, at least to me, the most difficult and cumbersome parts of the game to learn and use, since there's no tutorials or any other way to do so. They are also pretty much useless, there's literally no need to use them to complete the game in 1.1. I don't see why they were even included in the base game, in the first place.

Robots are useless!? Belts are also useless by that standard, they aren't necessary to complete the game.

If the signal network feature was eliminated from the game entirely in 2.0, nothing of value would be lost because there's no legitimate need for it. That's my opinion on this FF and on the circuit network in general.

Wrong. They are adding uses for it. I agree that in 1.1 there's a very limited amount of influence signals can have on your factory. But your conclusion for 2.0 is invalid, you don't know what 2.0 is.

[Kadet123]

This is nice and all... but does this FINALLY give us a way to 'sanitize' our inputs? [...]

Yeah, I would really like see the "filter" functionality in the selector combinator. You would select a bunch of signals (like you do in the constant combinator) and you could turn it into a whitelist/blacklist mode that would allow/deny certain signals from passing through.

In theory this should be simple now. Say you have a green wire full of random signals, and you want to filter it down to just the Ore signals.

Hook that green wire to an arithmetic combinator's input.

Take a constant combinator, set every Ore to 1. Hook that to the same arithmetic combinator using a red wire.

In the arithmetic combinator, set it to do Any from green times Any from red, and output on Green. Voila, its filtered?

Edit: just noticed its only the Decider that has the Red/Green check boxes, not the Arithmetic.. So this is a feature suggestion

Edit Edit: But a Decider combinator should now be able to accomplish filtering anyway, right? Just set it up with a list of OR conditions that are "not 0" and have the outputs be the same signal values. Voila, the set is filtered?

[BrainlessTeddy]

God frickin damnit. That's insane changes for me at least. About half or even more of my playtime was spend on building games with combinators. And the amount of space I'm going to safe up is immersurable. That changes absolutely everything. But I am at least a little bit pissed you announced this change right now when I am working on a small console. Kinda takes away the motivation to finish my project.

That actually makes me think. Are all current combinator settings still going to work in 2.0? Or will version 2.0 be backwards compatible with combinator blueprints from 1.1? I don't think it should be a problem with deciders but what about the arithmetic? Especially the AND, OR and XOR operator since they will be kinda obsolete with those implemented in the decider in 2.0. Just a question tho. I wouldn't mind at all reworking all my contraptions or even rebuilding them from scratch with the new combinators.

Also the selector is a really cool concept I think about some things I'd really like to have implemented because I feel like there are some things that I'd really appreciate. But then again I don't use them how they're supposed to be used.

[mmmPI]

This is nice and all... but does this FINALLY give us a way to 'sanitize' our inputs? [...]

Yeah, I would really like see the "filter" functionality in the selector combinator. You would select a bunch of signals (like you do in the constant combinator) and you could turn it into a whitelist/blacklist mode that would allow/deny certain signals from passing through.

In theory this should be simple now. Say you have a green wire full of random signals, and you want to filter it down to just the Ore signals.

Hook that green wire to an arithmetic combinator's input.

Take a constant combinator, set every Ore to 1. Hook that to the same arithmetic combinator using a red wire.

In the arithmetic combinator, set it to do Any from green times Any from red, and output on Green. Viola, its filtered?

I think this is not possible to do (easily) , i was mistaken too when seeing the pictures from the FFF, but after a second thought/look i think it's only the decider combinator that can manipulate red/green wire data. Whereas the arithmetic combinators just "shows" as a visual information the signals on green and red background but you are still not allowed to do EACH(red)*EACH(green) without having to use multiple combinators such as shown here : viewtopic.php?t=103567 ( green*red and other such operations )

There are other ways to do signal filtering than strictly attempting to receate a (green)*(red) though as i was taught there : viewtopic.php?f=193&t=100784

I think it would be a nice addition to allow (green)*(red) in the arithmetic combinator, for such purposes, but it may be possible thanks to the filter combinator and the new decider to replicate some signal filtering/sanitizing functions, though it may require a little fiddling to find the wiring that does the job.


On an unrelated note, it occur to me that you can create clocks from the new combinators quite easily, if you choose a random input from only 1 constant combinator that ouput always the same thing , then you just need to enter the interval, and there you go, a UPS efficient clock that doesn't change value every tick but only triggers when needed

[Saphira123456]

I'll be honest here: I have never used the signal network and am entirely unlikely to start because there's no tutorials on it and it is overwhelmingly complex.

Wrong. There are tutorials.

I've also never used robots, plopping everything down by hand.

Robotics and the signal network are, at least to me, the most difficult and cumbersome parts of the game to learn and use, since there's no tutorials or any other way to do so. They are also pretty much useless, there's literally no need to use them to complete the game in 1.1. I don't see why they were even included in the base game, in the first place.

Robots are useless!? Belts are also useless by that standard, they aren't necessary to complete the game.

If the signal network feature was eliminated from the game entirely in 2.0, nothing of value would be lost because there's no legitimate need for it. That's my opinion on this FF and on the circuit network in general.

Wrong. They are adding uses for it. I agree that in 1.1 there's a very limited amount of influence signals can have on your factory. But your conclusion for 2.0 is invalid, you don't know what 2.0 is.

As you yourself have noted in other FF discussions, few people if any use the circuit network. It could be eliminated completely, and nobody would panic or be impacted in any way. If they were to announce in the next FF that they were eliminating the circuit network feature, I guarantee you the response from most people would be "mehhh, who uses that stuff anyway?"

Belts move stuff from place to place automatically and are an essential part of the gameplay, they are absolutely essential. For fluids, pipes are essential. And for high-density transport, nothing beats a train.

Robots on the other hand, not so much. They don't do anything any better than the player and his or her built structures already can do manually, especially at the point where they become available. They do NOT increase efficiency, defensibility, or etcetera, and are quite simply, completely unnecessary and entirely optional.

Likewise with the circuit network, a completely unnecessary and quite frankly, unwanted part of the game. Making it mandatory is a way to basically ENSURE that a significant portion of the player base, will NOT buy this expansion.

The best way to make robots an actual effective part of the game is to make them available a lot earlier. Like from red science forward. However, that would encourage laziness.

There is no way to make the circuit network an actual part of the game, on the other hand, not without radical reconstruction of the entire system to make it a lot simpler, including the elimination of combinators and almost every other structure that has to do with the circuit network, which would invalidate this FF and all others that have to do with said system, reducing it to a simple IF/THEN system similar to train schedules.

[mmmPI]

Edit: just noticed its only the Decider that has the Red/Green check boxes, not the Arithmetic.. So this is a feature suggestion

Edit Edit: But a Decider combinator should now be able to accomplish filtering anyway, right? Just set it up with a list of OR conditions that are "not 0" and have the outputs be the same signal values. Voila, the set is filtered?

Sorry i quoted you before the edit, i agree with the feature suggestion !

about the second point, i don't know how you can think about it while not ingame x), i can only do for the 1.1 ones because i'm familiar with them, but when i read you sentence i can't confirm/infirm the "right" it seem to abstract as of now, but that's the kind of thng i was refering too when i said maybe with some fiddling someone will find a way to simplify the existing filtering system x)

[Engimage]

Absolutely beautiful.
But I did not catch if you are actually able to select the input wire in arithmetic combinator? This is something that did oftentimes confuse my builds when the same signal comes on both wires

[AvengerStar]

These new combinator changes are cool, though in a way, I will miss the more simplistic barebones approach akin to building with very basic logic chips. A necessary evil to improve their capability, I suppose.

The selector combinator has rocket capacity as a condition, and what I'm assuming is that, based on the description, is that it outputs the number of items from an inputted signal that can fit in a rocket, assuming that that item is the only thing that is being loaded. If that is the case (I'm not entirely sure to be honest, it could use some clarification), then I would like for this functionality to be extended to all storage types: chests, train wagons, what have you, and have whichever type of storage be selectable through the combinator's menu. That on its own would simplify some of my trains' circuit logic even further (and ironically run counter to my earlier lamenting, but I'll embrace this new direction well enough).

[mmmPI]

Robotics and the signal network are, at least to me, the most difficult and cumbersome parts of the game to learn and use, since there's no tutorials or any other way to do so. They are also pretty much useless, there's literally no need to use them to complete the game in 1.1. I don't see why they were even included in the base game, in the first place.

Likewise with the circuit network, a completely unnecessary and quite frankly, unwanted part of the game. Making it mandatory is a way to basically ENSURE that a significant portion of the player base, will NOT buy this expansion.

As you yourself have noted in other FF discussions, few people if any use the circuit network. It could be eliminated completely, and nobody would panic or be impacted in any way. If they were to announce in the next FF that they were eliminating the circuit network feature, I guarantee you the response from most people would be "mehhh, who uses that stuff anyway?"

You are mixing up things here, Yes circuits can be difficult to use and i think it is a reason why they are not widely used. It doesn't mean they are useless, it's just that you are not able to use them to your advantage, like many players. But the for the players that can they are VERY VERY useful, there are plenty of things you can do only with combinators, they are a game in themselves, and many times i have played factorio for several hours straight in editor mode just playing with combinators and sharing such experience with other players that do the same, i can assure you that you are missing a whole part of the community when you think people wouldn't miss combinators. To me there are like 25% of the factorio game, and 25% are trains. That would be a huge chunk removed. You are being needlessly provocative, or quite blatantly unaware of the discussions that occurs around factorio on the forum where there are entire sections dedicated to combinator builds.

I think many players go for factorio or other game with reflexion logic creativity and planning over reflexes or realistic 3D games, because they like challenging puzzle for the intellect, and that removing all things "difficult" so that everyone find everything easy is the way to alienate the community. I think combinators are well placed because players that do not understand them do not feel punished for not using them in the base game, this doesn't mean they could be removed, rather made easier to understand.

But when i read you say there is no tutorial or you don't see why they are included in the base game, at this point i can't blame WUBE, just you, there are plenty of tutorials, in-game, on the wiki on youtube or the forum, it's just plain wrong saying there is no tutorial, and there are plenty of example of things people can do with combinators and reactions to them are often time "great" "genius" "so cool" "please share blueprints" or other positive feedback. Wube can't make it easier to understand with tutorials if players keep repeating there is no tutorial when there in fact is tutorial x) i can understand wube not trying too much because there will always be players that refuse to read the rules and complain the game is difficult, it doesnt mean the balance should be made for those players !

The best way to make robots an actual effective part of the game is to make them available a lot earlier. Like from red science forward. However, that would encourage laziness. There is no way to make the circuit network an actual part of the game, on the other hand, not without radical reconstruction of the entire system to make it a lot simpler.

That was the case before that robots were available earlier ( full logisitic at blue science ), yes that encourage laziness, because bots are very strong, which contradict your own argument that they are useless.

The circuit network is supposed to be used for oil processing, which is now necessary to get the full logistics, ( same update ), but it still possible to add many storage tanks and remove them manually for inexperienced players ... or players that refuse to acknoledge the existence of tutorial to help them do what they couldn't find on their own you know ^^

[Jarin]

I am slowly going insane waiting to play with all these new toys

[Kadet123]

Edit: just noticed its only the Decider that has the Red/Green check boxes, not the Arithmetic.. So this is a feature suggestion

Edit Edit: But a Decider combinator should now be able to accomplish filtering anyway, right? Just set it up with a list of OR conditions that are "not 0" and have the outputs be the same signal values. Voila, the set is filtered?

Sorry i quoted you before the edit, i agree with the feature suggestion !

about the second point, i don't know how you can think about it while not ingame x), i can only do for the 1.1 ones because i'm familiar with them, but when i read you sentence i can't confirm/infirm the "right" it seem to abstract as of now, but that's the kind of thng i was refering too when i said maybe with some fiddling someone will find a way to simplify the existing filtering system x)

Thinking about it more, filtering might even be simpler than I suggested. Set the Decider to have 1 condition of "Any not 0", and the right side is a list of selectable signals to output (using Input Count).

I'm a software dev, so I'm kinda used to thinking about how logic will flow without it being fully testable yet. But still, I might be wrong. But I like the features they are adding.