Separation of poles and power wires

[MF-]

I understand the reasons behind combining poles and power wires into one item.
- Placing them would be tedious if they were separate.
- + possibly codewise reasons related to graph traversal and analysis

I believe that it could work very well even if poles didn't carry the wires builtin.
There would be a simple feature - each placed pole would automatically use the wires from your inventory to connect as usual.

That would allow me to achieve zero downtime when moving the posts away and choose what gets connected where.
+ more consistency as a free bonus - player would only pay for the wires that actually got used.

Obviously I would have to rotate the post manually if I had no wires on me.

[zlosynus]

Not a completely bad idea, but in the current system (unless you have networks disconnected) you have n-1 wires for n poles, since they autoform a tree, so it is not like you pay anything extra here. I would actually prefer to not have wires connecting in the minimal closes manner, because it is impossible to keep any other topology then tree easily now. It would be better if the poles are automatically connected to nearby poles unless there is a very short path between these poles using some other wires (so the auto-wiring is not so dense).

[Blackmoor]

I'm not sure I see what is gained with this idea. Why would you ever want a pole without a wire connected to it?

[MF-]

That would be only a side effect; The only purpose of mentioning wire-less poles was to make sure the rotation doesn't get omitted if implemented
My reason was mostly "wiring freedom + consistency bonus"

I found myself tearing down and re-building posts just to achieve nicer wiring patterns.
(For example: avoiding zig-zag wiring patterns if the same could be achieved by two parallel lines -> keeping the "sink-source" wire length minimal)
There are situations that force me to move a pole that conveys all the power (because it's in the way of some complex factory setup)
For some reason that usually occurs at night. It's really uncomfortable to see the whole factory disappear in the dark.
This would allow me to create the new connection before I break the old one. (Or to even check that the new connection is possible!)

If we ever get buildings that explode, it will be even more important to be able to add redundancy to the grid.
If the wires get resistance at some point, it will be even more important to be able to choose what machine connects where.

@ Blackmoor
btw: it could save on copper when making signal connection between two separately powered factory blocks.

@ zlosynus
if there is an algorithm that produces better-looking grids, then precise it and I am sure it will get in
I don't completely understand. A picture with the example in a dedicated thread would help.

[Mysteria9]

It's a good idea! But having the option is always nice. Like this:
•Placing a pole using right-click will take a copper wire from the inventory as usual and connect it.
•Placing a pole using shift+right-click will place only the pole and no copper wire is taken frem the inventory.
•Selecting the copper wire in the inventory would allow us to place it between poles freely, be it to unconnected poles or as redundant wires to already connected poles.
•Everyone's happy!

[MF-]

Yes, like that
Thanks for writing down the mechanics.

I am not sure about the shift-rclick part, though.
If someone builds one power-less pole, there is a reasonable probability that he wants to build next one.

I would seek some sort of toggle mechanism instead.
To go even further - If there was a toggle for automatic power wire, what about a toggle for automatic Red and Green wiring?

But where would such toggles be intuitively located?
I thought about three little buttons somewhere.
- On the poles in the inventory over the insulators?
- Somewhere in the OSD (above any slot that contains poles?) ?
- In some sort of a menu?

Alternative proposal - no toggles necessary:
Posts would look up the nearby posts (as usual) and autoconnect the wire colors that are present on that post.
(If I build a post next to one that has Power and Green, the new post would connect using Power and Green wiring from my inventory)

[Mysteria9]

Alternative proposal - no toggles necessary:
Posts would look up the nearby posts (as usual) and autoconnect the wire colors that are present on that post.
(If I build a post next to one that has Power and Green, the new post would connect using Power and Green wiring from my inventory)

That would actually be a disaster for the smart system.
But then again, having the option doesn't hurt.

[MF-]

That would actually be a disaster for the smart system.
But then again, having the option doesn't hurt.

True, thanks for catching that obvious error.
Obviously, I have no circuit network experience.

Any suggestion where in the GUI should that option be and how it could look like?

[kovarex]

Just a small note.
Are you guys aware of the fact, that you can use copper wire, and connect electric poles manually?

[MF-]

Just a small note.
Are you guys aware of the fact, that you can use copper wire, and connect electric poles manually?

Oh my.. I feel stupid for not checking.
I can't check right now.. DRI/LibGL trouble...

Will I get the wires back, or they get lost?

What do you think about not putting the wires into the recipe and taking them from the inventory?
Basically - for the sake of accountability and for allowing the player to remove those wires as well.

And having three toggles that control autoplacing of each type of wire? Somewhere.

[kovarex]

Will I get the wires back, or they get lost?

They get lost, we considered the loss to be pretty small to care, but it could be handled easily, especially if the this (↓↓) was implemented.

What do you think about not putting the wires into the recipe and taking them from the inventory?
Basically - for the sake of accountability and for allowing the player to remove those wires as well.

I think it is nice idea, we could also make the poles connecting algorithm different (as zlosyn suggested earlier).
The logic would be, that the pole would connect to every neighbour, and not only connect 2 neighbours that are too near (2-3 nodes far).

And having three toggles that control autoplacing of each type of wire? Somewhere.

Not sure about this one, it might add another complexity to controls for everyone.

[MF-]

The logic would be, that the pole would connect to every neighbour, and not only connect 2 neighbours that are too near (2-3 nodes far).

And having three toggles that control autoplacing of each type of wire? Somewhere.

Not sure about this one, it might add another complexity to controls for everyone.

I am glad you like the idea.

I am not really sure what would that look like or what the impact on wiring cost would be.

Neither am I. There is no good spot where such controls would really intuitively fit.
I am not even sure that there is a need for easier building of long signal lines / powerless signal lines.

[ssilk]

I think it is nice idea, we could also make the poles connecting algorithm different (as zlosyn suggested earlier).
The logic would be, that the pole would connect to every neighbour, and not only connect 2 neighbours that are too near (2-3 nodes far).

I think this is the most userfriendly way. More advanced players use more advanced techniques.

Suggestion
Default: Connect as much wires to a pole, as can be reached.
Pressing Shift: Connect only to the nearest pole (like now)
Pressing Ctrl: Non is connected.

It would also be useful to see the network-number (or a color) to distinct between different networks. Pressing Alt means then: Connect only to the pole of the network you formerly connected to.

[MF-]

I think it is nice idea, we could also make the poles connecting algorithm different (as zlosyn suggested earlier).
The logic would be, that the pole would connect to every neighbour, and not only connect 2 neighbours that are too near (2-3 nodes far).

I think this is the most userfriendly way. More advanced players use more advanced techniques.

Suggestion
Default: Connect as much wires to a pole, as can be reached.
Pressing Shift: Connect only to the nearest pole (like now)
Pressing Ctrl: Non is connected.

It would also be useful to see the network-number (or a color) to distinct between different networks. Pressing Alt means then: Connect only to the pole of the network you formerly connected to.

I am not sure I would want the Default if I was to pay for each wire (which was my primary goal - wire reclaiming)
-
Hmm.. Poles are autorotated, "r" does nothing important and could be abused.
-
How about some sort of a slider that would allow us to set a preferred "wire affinity". But again.. where..
-
Using a wire:pole ratio in your inventory? That would require no controls, but would be hard to figure out.
I usually don't have extra copper wires in my inventory, so I guess it would work for me.

[ssilk]

It's a complicated question. But I thought a lot to it...

Problems with the wires are only in dense areas. Sim city 2000 (and other sim cities) goes around this problem so, that you only need to connect a block with a house to electricity and the hole block has electricity. I mean: how cabled would sim city look, if you need to connect every house?

Same with factorio: connect one factory and all inserters and directly connected factories and their inserters are connected. This makes wiring much easier and more dense (may be shown like a factory has a pole on his roof and you see the wires from factory to inserters).
This could be done with nearly every kind of building. Think of how much nicer the hole game will look and how much less afford it would be to build?

And another rule would be fine: if you break down a pole, the other poles automatically search for a new connection to the previous network. I mean, they had this piece of wire left, right? why should it be waisted?

[MF-]

And another rule would be fine: if you break down a pole, the other poles automatically search for a new connection to the previous network. I mean, they had this piece of wire left, right? why should it be waisted?

This one could prevent easy separation of networks.

Having /only/ poles transmit energy has could be useful when some energy-loss algorithms are implemented.
If crafters transmitted energy, it would make it way more complex (and possibly slow)

If you want to mimic "a block needs to be powered at one place", the simply build such blocks and put a substation in the center of each.
I believe it would even match simcity in the scale.

[ssilk]

Hm. I must blame me that I never used to build that, cause I thought it is too expensive. And it doesn't look right/good. And it was too much time taking to replace the stuff.

For me, power poles are in the landscape to connect far away stuff.

But the next game I promise to build also big poles.