Friday Facts #381 - Space Platforms

[mmmPI]

[Moderated by Koub : Response to a moderated comment]

[SackCFix]

"Power is automatically distributed by space platform tiles so you don't need to build electric poles or substations on the platform, ..."

My thought: Hell yeah! Now we can build gigantic Lamp-Displays in Space that are not interrupted by Poles or Substations!

Folks, prepare your Combinators!

happy-birthday-to-you-minions.gif (32.15 KiB) Viewed 3557 times

[Impatient]

IMO asteroid collectors need to be filter-able, meaning it would be nice to be able to set, what they collect.

[pleegwat]

Each asteroid type has a different preffered weapon. Laser turrets are only efficient against the small asteroids, and the medium one need at least a gun turret. Since energy is quite scarce on the platform, it is usually better strategy to just use gun turrets for both small and medium asteroids.

Wait, what? "Different preferred weapon" but oh btw use gun turrets. Sad face. Mechanics encouraging greater weapon mix (at least in hard modes) is one of the things I've been hoping for.

And I would expect this to be based not on the size of the asteroid but the material it is made of. Like metallic asteroids being more resistant to lasers, because they conduct heat better.

[Abarel]

I mean, you refuse to put in a flare stack, incinerator, or etcetera to get rid of things you don't want on planets but you allow us to dump things overboard for space platforms?
What happened to your claim of not wanting to trivialize disposal of excess items? Because this does just that.

I agree.
What about "the platform remains a belt logistic puzzle"? is it just again something on "belt vs bots" or it really is meant to be about logistic puzzle?
I love when you have ways to avoid as much as possible any way of waste at first, reusing or repurposing stuff, then recycle as last resort. But just dump things? I would not like that at all.

[<NO_NAME>]

A lot of folks is asking how the items stick to the space-belts. Isn't it obvious? Glue, duh!
We will have to catch some new animal, turn its hoofs into glue and use it to builds belts on the platforms.

[dead-duck]

If asteroids only come from exactly opposite direction of travel, could you make a long skinny platform to minimize the asteroid collision threat? In other words, it doesnt seem like asteroids come from the sides

[computeraddict]

If asteroids only come from exactly opposite direction of travel, could you make a long skinny platform to minimize the asteroid collision threat? In other words, it doesnt seem like asteroids come from the sides

I think I saw them traveling at small angles to straight forward. Earendel ran into this exact thing with SE and introduced asteroids with small transverse velocities in response.

Edit: also with asteroids being a source of supplies, you don't necessarily want to minimize your collection of them unlike SE where they are purely a navigation hazard

[TheFabricator]

Looks like the crusher doesn't always crush everything. From my experience playing SE, this was the one thing that really bugged me. Byproducts I can understand, by having to feed the output right back into the input with a priority splitter, always struck me as rather absurd.

[blazespinnaker]

A lot of folks is asking how the items stick to the space-belts. Isn't it obvious? Glue, duh!
We will have to catch some new animal, turn its hoofs into glue and use it to builds belts on the platforms.

Yeah, there should have been a new type of belt for space. All new assemblers too.

It sort of feels like they avoided copying SE even though it has clearly superior ideas and treated suspension of disbelief with more care (mostly).

Not invented syndrome here leads to a lot of very poor decision making.

If they had started with SE as a base and then tried simplifying (especially for switch installs) / adding to it, this all could have been out ages ago perhaps. Maybe they tried but couldn't do a deal with the mod author on that, perhaps, and it came down to $$ or something.

Maybe the code base was a mess, but if they just positioned it as a 'campaign mod' style add on, I think folks would have accepted the bugs. It's not likely speedrunning SE is going to become this huge thing. And other than a few side issues with the new train elevator and some spaceships that I think mostly got addressed, it felt reasonably stable when I played it.

Maybe the mod author just didn't want to give up his baby. Which wouldn't surprise me. He's put a lot of love and care into that mod, it is very apparent. However, given how much they probably would have to simplify it, I'm pretty sure the fork would be different enough to keep going forward with very minimal drop off.

I admit to some disappointment, but you know, take my $$$ anyways. Whatever wube does I'm there with bells on!! The quality stuff, trains and other changes sound very cool.

[computeraddict]

Yeah, there should have been a new type of belt for space. All new assemblers too.

It sort of feels like they avoided copying SE even though it has clearly superior ideas and treated suspension of disbelief with more care (mostly).
Not invented syndrome here leads to a lot of very poor decision making.

If they had started with SE as a base and then tried simplifying (especially for switch installs) / adding to it, this all could have been out ages ago perhaps. Maybe they tried but couldn't do a deal with the mod author on that, perhaps, and it came down to $$ or something.

Maybe the code base was a mess, but if they just positioned it as a 'campaign' style add on, I think folks would have accepted the bugs. It's not likely speedrunning SE is going to become this huge thing. And other than a few side issues with the new train elevator and some spaceships that I think mostly got addressed, it felt reasonably stable when I played it.

I admit to some disappointment, but you know, take my $$$ anyways. Whatever wube does I'm there with bells on!! The quality stuff, trains and other changes sound very cool.

Earendel (SE author) got hired by Wube a while back and has been providing input on all of this. Ultimately SE's audience is only a subset of base Factorio, and they're very different experiences. Copying SE beat-for-beat wouldn't be a great idea.

[aka13]

A lot of folks is asking how the items stick to the space-belts. Isn't it obvious? Glue, duh!
We will have to catch some new animal, turn its hoofs into glue and use it to builds belts on the platforms.

Yeah, there should have been a new type of belt for space. All new assemblers too.

Well, and I disagree. "That's like your opinion, man"

It was an absolutely unfun part of SE. Why do I need for the same tasks suddenly a new belt and a new assembler, if they are functionally the same?
The space assembly thing was interesting, the colored even faster belts are also interesting, but the white belts and white assemblers are just a chore.
"You need these other belts and assemblers, but hold on, they are exactly functionally the same except for the color, but actually, the underground belts are worse because the author would like to enforce spagetti" is not a fun mechanic in my book.

I also think, that just translating a vision, a very good one at that, but born outside from wube 1:1 would be a rather disappointing move.
Earendel now (or better to say, for a while now) has the chance to extend and expand his vision without being limited by the mod API, and the possibility to implement new mechanisms, which should obviously lead to differences between SE and SA, some you will like, other I will like, that's quite alright with me.

[mmmPI]

Ultimately SE's audience is only a subset of base Factorio, and they're very different experiences. Copying SE beat-for-beat wouldn't be a great idea.

I fully agree, many players find combinators weird or difficult and can't or don't want to use them, those are sort of advanced feature, that's quite obvious when joining random multiplayer server. And in SE you have strong incentive to use them , or just have an ineficient , slow or with manual intervention build.

It really seems from all the FFF's that devs really integrated the feedback from comunity related to mods and picked the best to expand upon and tweak to fit their vision while keeping it accessible for a broad audience.

[blazespinnaker]

I'm not sure, but I think the white belts are faster? But it's a fair point for sure, simply repeating them is not ideal. Space belts, yes, but with some new mechanics would be good. All new assemblers with new mechanics as well. Isn't that part of the point - new mechanics?

But new mechanics aren't really my point. I suppose my issue is less about SE (as good as it is, it's too complex for a broad audience) but rather that it feels like factorio is being 'candy crushed'. Where their focus has been more on fun and less on things like atmosphere and suspension of disbelief.

Factorio differentiated itself with its futuristic hard core sci motif. Sure, some things are completely unreasonable in factorio, but for the most part they tried to simulate reality. The quality (ignoring the silly names) and elevated trains, imho, are fantastic improvements in that direction. But the original point to this - why aren't objects flying off the belts - is completely valid. Also, precluding chests on space platforms? Really? What's the reasoning there? SE had a great thing they did about robots - radiation. Though maybe that could be amped up a bit, at least in a hard mode.

Some of this space stuff feels like they're leaving their motif behind. Those tentacle like things grabbing asteroids? I mean, really, what's that about.

[mmmPI]

Since there is no (in depth) story in factorio , i guess everyone is free to make up one using imagination

Maybe it's glue that stick item to the belts that's a good one imo , if you get glue from fish from an alien planet i can understand that it's a symbolic relation with how glue was made in the history, like steam engine, steam-punk era, but if i were to guess there's something inside the platform that simulate gravity, that's also where the life-equipment for the player are located, the oxygen generator or something, maybe this anti-gravity technology that doesn't exist in real life shouldn't exist in video game but hey it's fun

[morhp]

Factorio differentiated itself with its futuristic hard core sci motif. Sure, some things are completely unreasonable in factorio, but for the most part they tried to simulate reality.

Sorry, but the only things that are close to reality in Factorio is that some sort of guns, cars and trains exist. Pretty much everything else is completely unrealistic.

But the original point to this - why aren't objects flying off the belts - is completely valid.

Magnets? Artificial gravity? Sorry, but compared to the fact that you can launch a base the size of the rocket silo with a rocket, I find that very minor in comparison.

Also, precluding chests on space platforms? Really?

I thought you wanted realism? A single chest could contain unreasonable large masses, like e.g. 4800 steel plates, and as Factorio is modelling mass for space travel, having a single full chest should slow you down inexplicably, which wouldn't be expected or fun, and it also wouldn't be realistic compared to the needed platform space.

[aka13]

I'm not sure, but I think the white belts are faster?

No, they are sadly not, they differ in underground length only.

Space belts, yes, but with some new mechanics would be good. All new assemblers with new mechanics as well. Isn't that part of the point - new mechanics?

Well yes, mechanics, not tedium. Like, the crushers and the recyclers, that's a new mechanic. The small white assembler is not, that's what I meant.

But new mechanics aren't really my point. I suppose my issue is less about SE (as good as it is, it's too complex for a broad audience) but rather that it feels like factorio is being 'candy crushed'. Where their focus has been more on fun and less on things like atmosphere and suspension of disbelief.

I feel what you mean with quality, it certainly feels like a candy crush mechanic, but otherwise, I don't think I agree. Kind of like nuclear, I personally think that it is too easy, I much prefer control like in the "realistic reactors" mod, which in my opinion is the best mod ever. It blends in with factorio, and creates "deep" "complex" gameplay.
Kovarex-Style enrichment of SE is not complex, it's tedious, and I have like 3k+ hours in vanilla deathworld megabases, tedium is my second name.

The mechanic of travelling to a different planet, and the core-mining - that's bombastic. Beacon overload mechanic - I am all in, this is exactly how vanilla beacons couldve been, and I enjoy it more than vanilla beacons.

Setting up the same rail grid with the same 2x2-chest-wired inserter-enricher + macerator modules is not complex, it's artificial barriers stretching gameplay time.

To me personally one of the main selling points of factorio is that there is only a very limited, overseeable subset of initial incoming ressources. I enjoyed Gregtec 4 (still do, on the russian IIS) a lot, but there is just a point, where getting a trillion different ressources, but all being the same acerate-wash-smelt-throw away byproduct chain is just boring. Factorio shines here - the focus is not in the chains, but in the logistics.

That is why I also do not enjoy the major overhaul mods for factorio, since they go into that direction, which is just not fun for me personally

Factorio differentiated itself with its futuristic hard core sci motif. Sure, some things are completely unreasonable in factorio, but for the most part they tried to simulate reality. The quality (ignoring the silly names) and elevated trains, imho, are fantastic improvements in that direction.

Some of this space stuff feels like they're leaving that behind. Those tentacle like things grabbing asteroids? I mean, really, what's that about.

I feel on the contrary, that factorio is nowhere near reality, and that the simplified processes are what makes the logistics side of factorio fun.
I tangeted manufacturing/assembly at one point in my life, and IRL for screwing in 3 screws and attaching a part you are gonna have a whole station on an assembly line going kilometers. You are not stuffing components into a blackbox, and get a ready product out.
In factorio, you are not making a 12 step contraption for iron gears, with macerating-purifying-smelting-casting-inspecting-rolling-stancing-whatever, which even in that form would be simplified, you just put iron plates in, get iron gears out. That is the brilliance of factorio, and why I still enjoy it all those years later. You can quickly and orgnically scale, optimize and uncover new possibilities.



But I as before stated, respect your opinion, and understand, what you are looking for.
I also don't consider it a flame war, I very much enjoy the conversation, and the possibility to exchange views.

[blazespinnaker]

Sorry, but the only things that are close to reality in Factorio is that some sort of guns, cars and trains exist. Pretty much everything else is completely unrealistic.

Absolutely, but quality and elevated trains added to the suspension of disbelief and the atmosphere of Factior.

Factories flying between planets do not. Thematic outpost mining at asteroids would have, and the long range transportation challenges they evoked would have been epic.

Anyways, better stop replying now because apparently replying means it's a flame war.

[Picks]

There's something "off" about the thrusters visuals.
I think it's the smoke.
It moves backwards - shouldn't it just stay put (edit; or at least move away as fast as the platform is moving)? Maybe it works different in a vaccuum? I don't know.
It looks weird, though, when the smoke is produced and flies away faster than the platform is moving - especially when the thrusters shut off and the last bit of smoke flies away.
edit; maybe not. I dunno.

[Brambor]

There's something "off" about the thrusters visuals.
I think it's the smoke.
It moves backwards - shouldn't it just stay put (edit; or at least move away as fast as the platform is moving)? Maybe it works different in a vaccuum? I don't know.
It looks weird, though, when the smoke is produced and flies away faster than the platform is moving - especially when the thrusters shut off and the last bit of smoke flies away.
edit; maybe not. I dunno.

You can fly at 100 m/s (relative to Earth) and throw a plate (or thrust gas) at 2 000 m/s backwards. The exhaust would travel at 1900 m/s relative to Earth. If you stopped trusting, you would see the exhaust escaping you at 2000 m/s.

And thrust you exhausted earlier at greater speeds, if you manage to boost your speed by 500 m/s then the first exhausted gas is now travelling at 2500 m/s away from you. If you manage to speed up to 2000 m/s, then the newly exhausted gas would be stationary relative to Earth. Any faster and the exhaust would travel from the Earth too.

The only thing you should see stopping when you stop thrusting is acceleration. So when you turn off your engines, you should see everything travel in a straight line. If it were in the atmosphere, it would slow down bit by bit by friction with the air.

It is "off" because we are used to gravity. When you let go of something or throw it, it falls on the ground and stops as it hits it.