Friday Facts #378 - Trains on another level

[TheRaph]

A question:

1. If I walk with my character on that upper-level train.

Assuming you mean upper level rail: You can't.

Yes I mixed up "train" and "track" ...

So I'm stopped by an invisible force if I try to enter the ramps?

[FuryoftheStars]

A question:

1. If I walk with my character on that upper-level train.

Assuming you mean upper level rail: You can't.

Yes I mixed up "train" and "track" ...

So I'm stopped by an invisible force if I try to enter the ramps?

That's my assumption. Basically the ramps will have a collision box against the player and the player would just simply walk under elevated rails. I'm guessing it may be too complex and have too many edge cases/issues with letting the player (and biters) up on. Though it would've been awesome.

[TheRaph]

So I'm stopped by an invisible force if I try to enter the ramps?

That's my assumption. Basically the ramps will have a collision box against the player and the player would just simply walk under elevated rails. I'm guessing it may be too complex and have too many edge cases/issues with letting the player (and biters) up on. Though it would've been awesome.

That put some other question on the table:
If I'm driving that train. Stop on the upper track and hit the Enter-Key. What happen?
Will I just stuck in that train? - Impossible. If I stoppedk due to fuel empty and can not leave, the game will instantly useseless.
Will I go to floor? Will I not be able to drive a train onto the upper track?

And so on.

[FuryoftheStars]

So I'm stopped by an invisible force if I try to enter the ramps?

That's my assumption. Basically the ramps will have a collision box against the player and the player would just simply walk under elevated rails. I'm guessing it may be too complex and have too many edge cases/issues with letting the player (and biters) up on. Though it would've been awesome.

That put some other question on the table:
If I'm driving that train. Stop on the upper track and hit the Enter-Key. What happen?
Will I just stuck in that train? - Impossible. If I stoppedk due to fuel empty and can not leave, the game will instantly useseless.
Will I go to floor? Will I not be able to drive a train onto the upper track?

And so on.

Second to last post on page 8:

I am also very excited, this makes the waiting game feel even longer. Also I saw many questions that were answered in the factorio discord. This was pinned there earlier:

[husnikadam]

Question to devs - have you at some stage considered the 16 ramp variants? What made you decide to go with just 4? Is it the huge angeled/polygon hitboxes? Is it the sprites count/data demandingness? Some kind of technical limitation? Optimization limitation? Does it look bad? Or do you just want to make the elevated rails usage not as straight forward?

If you were considering 4 vs 8 variants, I agree with the decision of going with just 4 as 4 variants seem much more intentional rather than "missing" remaining 8 variants, that would be way less intuitive.

I wonder whether it could be modded to add remaining 12 ramp variants, perhaps even by you
Thank you for the answer.

[FuryoftheStars]

Question to devs - have you at some stage considered the 16 ramp variants? What made you decide to go with just 4? Is it the huge angeled/polygon hitboxes? Is it the sprites count/data demandingness? Some kind of technical limitation? Optimization limitation? Does it look bad? Or do you just want to make the elevated rails usage not as straight forward?

If you were considering 4 vs 8 variants, I agree with the decision of going with just 4 as 4 variants seem much more intentional rather than "missing" remaining 8 variants, that would be way less intuitive.

I wonder whether it could be modded to add remaining 12 ramp variants, perhaps even by you
Thank you for the answer.

I believe it was mentioned or eluded to somewhere it was the amount of work that needed to go into it. For every facing, it's more than the ramp itself they need to make new sprites for. (Locos, cargo and fluid wagons, artillery.)

[factoriouzr]

this is great

[Floptical]

genuinely hyped by this, cant wait to test it out

[AlveKatt]

Will custom train graphics work with this mod if they don't have a new sprite-maps for the ramp angles?

I figure you may use turning angle sprites on the slopes, but I realize that you might not want to because it might mess with the rendered perspective of shadows/highlights. Never mind the stretch and squish of train graphics... And I just realized that you can't cheat with turn angles on the ramps going vertically over the screen...

Maybe a compromise where train graphic mods automatically use turn angles for the horizontal ramps if it lacks a ramp angle sprite-map? (And just ignores any graphics change in vertical ramps..)

I mean, making custom train graphics is messy enough as it is...

edit: I just realized you would have to use the textures turning the opposite way and rotate them a bit... Would it still work?

[datarza]

Do we really need bridges? You better do the good UI and statistic info for trains and stations.

[mmmPI]

Do we really need bridges?

Yes ! The number of crossing is mathematically prooven to have a lower limit that cannot be made lower without bridges if you increase the number of stations and want to connect each of them to the others. Bridges allows to get rid of this limitation since it allows to create networks with only "merge" juctions, and no "crossing" without forcing trains to huge detour. Crossings are places where you have a limit on train throughput that is much lower than in merge junction unless you create a junction that can buffer enough trains to make up for the time they have to stop to let other train cross their planned path. This doesn't happen in merge junctions as all train that interact with each other goes to the same destination wich fix the maximum throughput that will be achieved even if a train has to stop because that can only be to let another train going to the same destination. The difference is akin to traffic light vs highway for trains where drivers/trains entering a highway don't have to stop to let another driver go another way; they only stop when there is no room to go where they want to go.

You better do the good UI and statistic info for trains and stations.

I would not be suprised if this is also something announced in a future FFF, but it would be easier to tell if you provide more information on the kind of statistic you want to see. % of time the station is enabled ? number of train arriving per hour ? that kind of info ?
things likes material throughput would be hard to attach to a train stop if you load an unload iron ore in different train, i may be not seeing it ?

There is a mod to know how long has a train travelled since the start of the game, i think it's funny and also suprisingly helpful to debug trains that are not expected to move often like bringing sulfuric acid to uranium mines, it allows to see that they have moved even it look like they are always waiting for a mining outpost to require sulfuric acid. It also allows to compare/measure distances of rails track easily. ( things like this outpost is at 12 km for a train , and this other one 10 km if you send a train in both and read their travelled distance).

Not sure how i would use other statistics

[datarza]

Do we really need bridges?

Yes ! The number of crossing is mathematically prooven to have a lower limit that cannot be made lower without bridges if you increase the number of stations and want to connect each of them to the others. Bridges allows to get rid of this limitation since it allows to create networks with only "merge" juctions, and no "crossing" without forcing trains to huge detour. Crossings are places where you have a limit on train throughput that is much lower than in merge junction unless you create a junction that can buffer enough trains to make up for the time they have to stop to let other train cross their planned path. This doesn't happen in merge junctions as all train that interact with each other goes to the same destination wich fix the maximum throughput that will be achieved even if a train has to stop because that can only be to let another train going to the same destination. The difference is akin to traffic light vs highway for trains where drivers/trains entering a highway don't have to stop to let another driver go another way; they only stop when there is no room to go where they want to go.

Not sure how i would use other statistics

Sound likes "The Old Spaghetti Factory". Please show your creation where do you really need bridges.

You better do the good UI and statistic info for trains and stations.

I would not be suprised if this is also something announced in a future FFF, but it would be easier to tell if you provide more information on the kind of statistic you want to see. % of time the station is enabled ? number of train arriving per hour ? that kind of info ?
things likes material throughput would be hard to attach to a train stop if you load an unload iron ore in different train, i may be not seeing it ?

There is a mod to know how long has a train travelled since the start of the game, i think it's funny and also suprisingly helpful to debug trains that are not expected to move often like bringing sulfuric acid to uranium mines, it allows to see that they have moved even it look like they are always waiting for a mining outpost to require sulfuric acid. It also allows to compare/measure distances of rails track easily. ( things like this outpost is at 12 km for a train , and this other one 10 km if you send a train in both and read their travelled distance).

Not sure how i would use other statistics

How many trains, stations and routes have you achieved in the game?

[mmmPI]

Sound likes "The Old Spaghetti Factory". Please show your creation where do you really need bridges.

I'm afraid it makes no sense to ask me to show current creations where bridges are necessary, because i wouldn't build now something that doesn't function unless it has bridges.

Although if you are not convinced by my explanation you can have a look at the pictures from this FFF and look at the clover leaf junctions.
Edit : junctions are shown in this FFF instead : https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-380

Bridges also allow to have that many 1 way stations next to each other without risk of bottlenecks to access them.

If you want more explanations on why they are necessary from a mathematical point of view : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBfAYxxRsjY

If you want to see my older creations with bridges => viewtopic.php?t=72161

How many trains, stations and routes have you achieved in the game?

Maybe the most i had in a game was around 2000 trains and you ?

Those numbers are already displayed in the game by the way, i was asking what kind of statistic would you want to see added in the game so that's not very illustrating from you. I was just trying to understand a little bit more what you meant in your previous comment. The only stat i can see having some use (one that i've actually used) is the distance travelled by trains.

Please show me the other stats you want to have in the game and how you use them currently ? lol

[datarza]

Sound likes "The Old Spaghetti Factory". Please show your creation where do you really need bridges.

I'm afraid it makes no sense to ask me to show current creations where bridges are necessary, because i wouldn't build now something that doesn't function unless it has bridges.

Although if you are not convinced by my explanation you can have a look at the pictures from this FFF and look at the clover leaf junctions.
Edit : junctions are shown in this FFF instead : https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-380

Bridges also allow to have that many 1 way stations next to each other without risk of bottlenecks to access them.

If you want more explanations on why they are necessary from a mathematical point of view : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBfAYxxRsjY

If you want to see my older creations with bridges => viewtopic.php?t=72161

How many trains, stations and routes have you achieved in the game?

Maybe the most i had in a game was around 2000 trains and you ?

Those numbers are already displayed in the game by the way, i was asking what kind of statistic would you want to see added in the game so that's not very illustrating from you. I was just trying to understand a little bit more what you meant in your previous comment. The only stat i can see having some use (one that i've actually used) is the distance travelled by trains.

Please show me the other stats you want to have in the game and how you use them currently ? lol

I am afraid you did not read carefully my first post, please read again and think better.

[mmmPI]

I am afraid you did not read carefully my first post, please read again and think better.

Your first post is :

Do we really need bridges? You better do the good UI and statistic info for trains and stations.

I think the explanations given are enough to illustrate my point of view related to your doubting of the usefullness of bridges. You were provided with objective material. Wether you are convinced or not is your personnal opinion, that i told you several time i am not able to understand from your few words.

I think you have given no indication as to what you consider a good UI

I think you have given no indication as to what statistic you are refering to ( and i asked questions about this because it's supposedly possible to illustrate with words).

The lack of indication was the meaning of my posts, but now it feel confrontationnal to me and you are not providing more information. I am still unable to understand the second part of your comment "adding good statistic for trains" because to me that's very generic.

There exists many suggestions for changing how the scheduling functions, not so much for more "statistic" being visible in game , i am afraid i can't think good enough to know what's in your head if you don't write it with words but i read it carefully.

[iceCore]

It's really beautiful. It's going to be very practical. However, when looking at the description picture, the guardrail on both sides of the train track is a bit disturbing the visual effect, and I do not know whether this is the result of comparison. Trains usually don't derail, I don't think there's any need to guard the train with railings. In the vertical position of the track, I hope to have a better view of the situation below the train track. Come on, I hope it's out soon. Very good!!

[Scover]

Okay, first of all, this is awesome. I love this.

But I'm concerned with a specific scenario. Since you can build elevated tracks over water, what happens if you drive manually on a bridge over water, and run out of fuel? Would you end up softlocked?

[FuryoftheStars]

Okay, first of all, this is awesome. I love this.

But I'm concerned with a specific scenario. Since you can build elevated tracks over water, what happens if you drive manually on a bridge over water, and run out of fuel? Would you end up softlocked?

Was answered in Discord and cross posted into this thread at some point: a train without fuel can be manually "pushed" at slow speeds.

[rkyeun]

Suggestion for elevated rails:
Make it so cliffs on the terrain can transition from elevated rail to non-elevated rail. I made a bridge, got elevated, went up the cliff with it, and now I'm no longer elevated on the ground at the top of the cliff. I ran off the edge of the cliff, and now my rail is elevated above the bottom of the cliff.

[boskid]

Suggestion for elevated rails:
Make it so cliffs on the terrain can transition from elevated rail to non-elevated rail. I made a bridge, got elevated, went up the cliff with it, and now I'm no longer elevated on the ground at the top of the cliff. I ran off the edge of the cliff, and now my rail is elevated above the bottom of the cliff.

No.