Friday Facts #378 - Trains on another level

[Saphira123456]

Calling Factorio a puzzle game is a bit of a stretch, but calling it a tycoon game is more wrong. In Factorio there is no game over when you run out of money. Even if your base is completely starved of resources, you can always get it back on its feet (just a lot of manual labour). You need that end game scenario for a game to be a tycoon game.

The primary gameplay loop in Factorio is automation, but with automation comes an underlying puzzle challenge: how to automate the production chains; usually in as few steps, resources and little real estate as possible. That's the puzzle challenge in Factorio. And it's constant. As others point out, railway construction is far more limited than belt construction, so they come with their own set of puzzle challenges. More directions and elevated rails definitely makes the puzzle challenge of railway construction easier.

I disagree. I play other games like this, especially Satisfactory, and there really isn't any puzzle to it, nor any challenge in any game like it. The biggest challenge is keeping your eyes open and finding ways to pass the time while your factory stockpiles research materials and components, agonizingly slowly. If you have biters turned on, then that's one solution but it still doesn't change the fact that this game has no real puzzle or challenge to it.

Once you get your initial setup of copper, iron and coal set up, you're all set. At that point, Factorio pretty much becomes an idle game.

[Saphira123456]

but there is no puzzle aspect in it whatsoever.

2. Just because you put pieces on a board, that doesn't mean it's a puzzle game. Otherwise board games, strategy games, and many, many others would also be considered puzzle games.

There is a puzzle aspect that i'm glad you recognize now, maybe it will help you understand why other people call factorio a puzzle game.

No, actually there's no puzzle aspect whatsoever in this game. So no, I don't understand why other people call factorio a puzzle game because it is very clearly not.

In fact, after you get your initial iron, copper and coal set up, it actually becomes more of an idle game.

[Svip]

I disagree. I play other games like this, especially Satisfactory, and there really isn't any puzzle to it, nor any challenge in any game like it. The biggest challenge is keeping your eyes open and finding ways to pass the time while your factory stockpiles research materials and components, agonizingly slowly. If you have biters turned on, then that's one solution but it still doesn't change the fact that this game has no real puzzle or challenge to it.

The Kovarex enrichment process is probably the best example of a puzzle in Factorio. You need to balance the enriched uranium returning to the loop, with the enriched uranium that you will need to keep your nuclear reactors running. Finding the right layout and balance is a puzzle onto itself. There are numerous, but less obvious, examples elsewhere in Factorio.

It's obviously trivial in Factorio to simply get automation started, but keeping it supplied without getting saturated is far more complicated (and mods definitely don't lessen this complication), and that presents onto itself a puzzle challenge. I spent a lot of time just thinking about how to layout my base, without actually laying out my base. This to me is one of the more enjoyable aspects of Factorio, and I definitely recognise it as a puzzle.

Once you get your initial setup of copper, iron and coal set up, you're all set. At that point, Factorio pretty much becomes an idle game.

This line suggests to me, that you play Factorio in a style that's very alien to the way I play Factorio. Not that everyone has to play it the same way I do.

[Feather]

stop fighting over whether factorio is or isn't a puzzle game (it doesn't matter) and let's talk about the fact that we still can't break landfill, it's the only permanent player placeable object that can't be destroyed and it replaces pollution absorbing water (landfill doesn't absorb any)

instead let's talk about how you will be able to build rails over bodies of water without the need to place any of it, isn't that great, it's also more aesthetically pleasing this way

[mmmPI]

but there is no puzzle aspect in it whatsoever.

2. Just because you put pieces on a board, that doesn't mean it's a puzzle game. Otherwise board games, strategy games, and many, many others would also be considered puzzle games.

There is a puzzle aspect that i'm glad you recognize now, maybe it will help you understand why other people call factorio a puzzle game.

No, actually there's no puzzle aspect whatsoever in this game. So no, I don't understand why other people call factorio a puzzle game because it is very clearly not.

In fact, after you get your initial iron, copper and coal set up, it actually becomes more of an idle game.

I thought you wrote "put pieces on a board" because you understood the similarities between puzzle game and what happens in factorio and realized it was contradictory with you saying "no puzzle aspect" because that would make it at least 1, but i guess i was wrong and despite my attempts at explaining why some people use the terms puzzle game you don't understand their reason to apply it to factorio. It's no big deal, if you don't understand why, at least you know it is something that some players do because maybe they have a perception more acute that allow them to see similarities between puzzle game and factorio.

A new set of Rails pieces for my favourite puzzle game is something that makes me happy i wish i was able to share this in a way that you could understand better than what i can explain

[aka13]

I am ok with performance impact if something is fun to play but Factorio is not about realizm, its about fun and this would not be fun.

Absolutely based

[Locane]

I see a lot of people excited, but I honestly don't get it. So what? Trains that are elevated? So I can build a base under them? Why? My screen is already busy enough in a large base, what's the point? Why would I want this?

[British_Petroleum]

Great job with these elevated rails!!! Devs are awesome.

If factorio is a puzzle game, then so is cities skylines.

[aka13]

1. Let's take a look at some of the games that give you DLC content for free, shall we?

First and foremost is Space Engineers.

Space Engineers is abandonware since planets were introduced. Nothing has been introduced since then meachanically, nothing has been fixed, survival is as barren and boring as it was. I'd say even worse since before the planets, since mining asteroids is pointless stone nowadays.

They will continue to milk the "muh lego in space" crowd for reskins of blocks for another couple of years, and then close it down in the same elegant way as they did with ME.

Also, you are unironically begging. You are propably better off begging for the money to purchase the DLC, rather than for the DLC. It will be quicker to beg for money directly, if you can not afford it, or are unwilling to spend the money.

[Koub]

I see a lot of people excited, but I honestly don't get it. So what? Trains that are elevated? So I can build a base under them? Why? My screen is already busy enough in a large base, what's the point? Why would I want this?

More options and flexibility to design your train network.

[conn11]

(…)
Second, I love the idea of the hopper unloaders someone mentioned above. (so dump the contents of a wagon from height into a store - though I know this is gonna be complicated as I suspect they aren't having train stops be elevated... still)
(…)

Those Hopper Unloader is reminisant of the concept of ropeway conveyors posted some years ago. The perfect oppertunity to create a medium range high theouput system by using smaller trains more centrally in the factory.

[mmmPI]

Great job with these elevated rails!!! Devs are awesome.

If factorio is a puzzle game, then so is cities skylines.

It didn't feel as such to me due to the 3D terrain, free camera , freeform roads and rails, and lack of combinators or wire logic that really add to the puzzle dimension. I think cities skylines is well inscribed in the city-building genre which has a long history unlike Factorio which when new was difficult to categorize , because saying to someone else it's an "automation game" wasn't rigging bells at the time and as such "puzzle game" was a keen approximation.

Making a junction in factorio feels more like a puzzle, so is making a production lane, or prepping blueprint i felt compared to cities skylines but i didn't play as much as factorio .

[Omnifarious]

This is absolutely amazing, and I have no suggestions or complaints. I'm already trying to come up with high-throughput junctions of all varieties. This just opens up the design space to an amazing degree.

I also wonder if I could manage my overall desire for forest preservation by elevating all of my rail lines through forests? There would be still a bunch of support pylons, each taking out a small chunk of forest, but that doesn't feel the same as having a train line running straight through it and dividing it in half.

And presumably cliffs are also no barrier to elevated rails either. Which makes it much easier to use cliffs as natural barriers for defense.

I do have a question though... The beautiful bridges mod makes long-distance electric power poles placeable on water. Elevated rails have support pylons that are placeable on water, but there seems to be no way to run power over water with this. The electric power poles on water always seemed a bit cheaty, and I like the Cargo Ships solution of having a separate floating power pole building a lot better. Will there be anything like that?

[Abarel]

2B: As in real life, loose materials are those like coal, iron ore, gears, screws...

You misunderstand. Internally, ore is no different from locomotives (as items). There is no concept of size or weight, so how do you differentiate?

Same way as you can differentiate items that require an energy source (like an assembler, a furnace or a locomotive) from items that doesn't (like a belt, a pipe or a box): a developer assign some property for each prototype.
I like Bulk Rail Loader mod by therax.

[Losash]

First, I've never been more excited about any blog post in a FFF ever!

But I'd like to make a quick note that after looking at provided videos very closely for some time in pure amusement, I've noticed that there is a problem with shadow casting now, limited by either engine or artists manual labor complexity.

Prior to bridges, it made perfect sense that shadow layer is singular, uniform and located above ground-layer entities, but below all the other on-ground entities.
All buildings were roughly the same size so them not casting shadows over each other were fine.

But now there are bridges, which are taller than everything else, and rolling stock riding them is even taller than that.
And they don't cast any shadows over on-ground entities. Including rolling stock not casting shadows on rail pillars and ect.

It's tricky to notice that so I'll bear with it, I guess upgrading this would be too much effort or made factories look too unclear if they've tried it.

[blazespinnaker]

Ok, Factorio isn't a puzzle game, but we can all agree it's a game designed to test ingenuity or knowledge, right?

[Carnivale]

Yes yes yes! Did I mention "YES!"?

[Splitframe]

Question for the developer.
Will mods be able to leverage the "second/elevated layer" as well or is this unique to rails?

An example would be a mod which mimics what you described for rails just with belts or skyways for walking.

[kirkbauer]

Stick this in the backlog if you run out of things to do before release. But I agree with some others that more ramp options would be very valuable. Although I don't think that just adding more directions (like 45deg) is the best option.

I'd love to see ramps with a 90deg turn. But you would need one with a left turn and one with a right turn, and each of those would need to be rotated in 4 orientations. But it would be really useful.

Also nice would be an "s turn" ramp that is almost like the straight ramp but jogs left or right on the way up or down.

[Saphira123456]

I disagree. I play other games like this, especially Satisfactory, and there really isn't any puzzle to it, nor any challenge in any game like it. The biggest challenge is keeping your eyes open and finding ways to pass the time while your factory stockpiles research materials and components, agonizingly slowly. If you have biters turned on, then that's one solution but it still doesn't change the fact that this game has no real puzzle or challenge to it.

The Kovarex enrichment process is probably the best example of a puzzle in Factorio. You need to balance the enriched uranium returning to the loop, with the enriched uranium that you will need to keep your nuclear reactors running. Finding the right layout and balance is a puzzle onto itself. There are numerous, but less obvious, examples elsewhere in Factorio.

It's obviously trivial in Factorio to simply get automation started, but keeping it supplied without getting saturated is far more complicated (and mods definitely don't lessen this complication), and that presents onto itself a puzzle challenge. I spent a lot of time just thinking about how to layout my base, without actually laying out my base. This to me is one of the more enjoyable aspects of Factorio, and I definitely recognise it as a puzzle.

Once you get your initial setup of copper, iron and coal set up, you're all set. At that point, Factorio pretty much becomes an idle game.

This line suggests to me, that you play Factorio in a style that's very alien to the way I play Factorio. Not that everyone has to play it the same way I do.

Honestly, the problem isn't getting saturated. It's keeping up a constant supply of product.