Friday Facts #375 - Quality

[Pirate_Rance]

No, you are not understanding my logic. If there is enough content to the expansion that I do not like, then I will simply not purchase the expansion. Plain and simple.

This legit makes you sound really REALLY entitled. It sounds like if you bought a box of stuff and it had extra in it you would return it cause it wasnt exactly how you wanted it. You sound like you demand the expansion ONLY have what you want in it and nothing else.

hey hey humans calm down ! x) the purchase decision is a personnal one, i'd rather hope people buy it if there is things they like in it, but i can understand someone not wanting to buy it, even if there is stuff they like, because they think there is mostly things they dislike, it make perfect sense not to buy a game if there is only 1% you like.

And thats fine which is why we have explained the content is OPTIONAL. If they dont want to buy it because it has one thing they dont like they should not be screeching that others should not have the content cause they dont want to play with it.

[FuryoftheStars]

Never said that I couldn't afford it. I also have never said yet that I'm not going to buy the expansion or drop the game. I'm fully aware that there's still more to be revealed, hence I am waiting on that before making a final decision. Ultimately, though, it doesn't matter if I got a million bucks in the bank and the expansion costs $1. If I dislike enough of the content in the expansion, I won't purchase it.

I'm merely saying the fact that "it's optional" is not a valid counter argument.

If I am understanding your logic then as I do not use Bots or Nuclear power I should not have to pay full price as I dont think that should be in the game and are (in your own words) a waste of dev time.

No, you are not understanding my logic. If there is enough content to the expansion that I do not like, then I will simply not purchase the expansion. Plain and simple.

This legit makes you sound really REALLY entitled. It sounds like if you bought a box of stuff and it had extra in it you would return it cause it wasnt exactly how you wanted it. You sound like you demand the expansion ONLY have what you want in it and nothing else.

No, this is a case of a box that I'm thinking of buying but haven't yet. It has, at this time, something in it that I don't like. Whether I plan on using the stuff that I dislike or not, I'm still paying for it if I buy the box. If the amount in it that I dislike isn't significant enough compared to what I do like, then I'll still buy it. If not, then I won't. That's not entitlement.

[mmmPI]

And thats fine which is why we have explained the content is OPTIONAL. If they dont want to buy it because it has one thing they dont like they should not be screeching that others should not have the content cause they dont want to play with it.

I agree with you that saying "im not going to buy it because there is the quality feature" is to be polite a pre-mature decision that one may regret writing on the internet if other feature from the expansion make their mind change again but hey some people may want to say that they are not convinced ( yet ) and explain why, maybe it also makes the dev smile on the inside because they have something ready to tell us about that adresses one or another point, it's healthy when people can complain because then when they don't you know you are onto something real good

[FuryoftheStars]

And thats fine which is why we have explained the content is OPTIONAL. If they dont want to buy it because it has one thing they dont like they should not be screeching that others should not have the content cause they dont want to play with it.

A large portion of the people posting that they dislike the feature as described have not said that this one thing ruins the expansion for them and/or that it should be removed. A lot have expressed dislike of it, and many have given alternate suggestions on how to change it. But your first post into this thread and follow up post to me wasn't "explaining" anything by being insulting and generalizing.

[fiery_salmon]

Reality check: every single hater will still buy the Expansion even if it will cost 50 bucks, because objectively game is great and content expansion (any) which natively fits into the base game (unlike mods) is great. It's so easy to hate for any reason, even such a stupid one as "I don't use a mechanic because I'm overwhelmed so I should not pay for it"

I will not play game with gacha/lootbox names in it, even if it would be available for free. Even if such offending names appear only on unlocking some research. Even if actual pay-to-win mechanisms are not present. Even if this names are removable by mods.

Yes, I am deeply allergic to this theme.

Yes, developers can ignore this.

<pedant mode>
BTW, "every single hater will still buy the Expansion" is false - with some many people some of them will stop playing games due to being busy, some will die, some will become too poor to buy it...

And that is without going into it that some will not buy due to deep dislike of this mechanism.
</pedant mode>

[Tricorius]

I don't like this at all. I've always hated when games had random quality levels when crafting things. Levels of things like assemblers and modules are great.

Also, I know I can turn this off but the feature will take up resources from development.

Please REREAD the FFF THIS FEATURE was developed and near complete PRE 1.0

Not only that, but they originally planned it as a 1.0 or 1.1 release. But dropped it for reasons explained elsewhere. But, yanno, all in the FFF.

[FuryoftheStars]

I don't like this at all. I've always hated when games had random quality levels when crafting things. Levels of things like assemblers and modules are great.

Also, I know I can turn this off but the feature will take up resources from development.

Please REREAD the FFF THIS FEATURE was developed and near complete PRE 1.0

Not only that, but they originally planned it as a 1.0 or 1.1 release. But dropped it for reasons explained elsewhere. But, yanno, all in the FFF.

And none of that has any bearing on the fact that some people don't like it and that time was spent on making this feature. So not sure what the point is that any of you are trying to make.

[picklock]

The recycler is a long-awaited feature. I like that.

But I don't really like this Quality. I'm one of those players who doesn't like random based improvement levels when crafting things.

[dandrestor]

Overall, I love this! But I also hate the names! I expect you will make them moddable though, right? I'd name them something like Crude/Low (and you only realize the quality wasn't even good before you unlock quality modules and see it), Normal/Nominal, High/Great, Exceptional/Superior and Pristine/Perfect.

I also agree with this. "Epic", "Legendary" etc. feel to me like quality levels I would use to describe items that have been crafted by a craftsman, rather than something engineered or mass-produced. More appropriate for a, say, RPG rather than Factorio. The mechanic is, though, a very nice addition!

[dandrestor]

Also, in case anybody thinks the quality mechanic is not appropriate for an engineering game:

https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/01 ... -lifetime/

[Tallinu]

This sounds amazing. Can't wait to try out that legendary power armor and spidertrons!

[TBC_x]

I wonder how many players quit after learning that nuclear processing is yielding shiny rocks at random that are absolutely necessary for optional nuclear power.

On a more serious note. I cannot wait to see new designs utilizing new quality machines. I can even see that higher quality low tier machines could be used for their lower cost.

The huge advantage is that smaller factories will be able to produce even more stuff which means more UPS without the ridiculous 9 tiers of modules. This way 10k SPM could be achievable even on average computers which means more multiplayer fun.

The quality would also change how people build megabases which would focus on optimized high quality machines and later on infinite science. This sounds very exciting because horizontal scaling is extremely boring to me and building megabases seemed like a waste of time. I'm sure this addition will change how I think of megabases.

[RedViper]

Yeah, after reading for the first 3 pages of this thread, I kinda lost faith in smartness of Factorio players.
All those haters better re-read the blog post syllable by syllable. Maybe then digest that:
1) system is completely optional;
2) actual quality values only matter at the start of the journey, later in the game only first and last will actually matter outside of incapsulated production blocks, so recipes and designs are nowhere close to x5, it's more like you either produce 1st quality for rocket launches/research/ect, or last quality for the mall and modules;

1. Answering "It's bad" with "It's optional" is not the defense you seem to think it is.

2.And that seems like a good thing to you?

[Losash]

I will not play game with gacha/lootbox names in it
Yes, I am deeply allergic to this theme.

I'm not sure if it's a weekend day at the circus today, or can you please delete the base 1.1 game from your Steam account and log off forums, because 0.7% U-235 chance already exists there in nuclear chain? "Oh that was not gacha!" - yeah? Tell me differences? Quality system being gacha is the fattest trolling one could provide here. Good job.

Obviously too lazy to wait for a year and check, but you will be among the first minute buyers of the Expansion no matter the nonsense you've just typed. The same story with the guy I've argued with previously here.

[KryptonicDragon]

Personally, I agree with the constructive criticism regarding the naming of the tiers seeming out of place for a game like Factorio. There's been a good few suggestions in here already for alternative names, so I won't give my own. However I do think the naming is a little silly too, so it would be neat if there was a (hidden?) checkbox in settings to revert the names to the RPG ones just for funsies (Maybe the same setting also renames science packs to kool-aid?)

Mechanically, I'm a huge fan of this change. I like the input/output loops when dealing with uranium processing and Kovarex enrichment, and now I get to make more loops! With filter splitters!
I'm excited for additional "vertical growth," and to me the Quality mechanic seems like a really clever way to create additional tiers of machines without repeating what various overhaul mods do, such as Bob's and 5Dim's. (Nothing against those mods, I enjoy them!)

The addition of The Recycler is very welcome, perhaps I won't have such a need to dump garbage into an iron chest and unleash projectiles to delete it. Although, there's still all that pesky wood. I don't imagine I can "recycle" wood into some air and water...
Also, are those machines loading onto the belts directly? Curious

This clearly isn't anything like "lootboxes" because of one obvious factor: the lack of scarcity. Any actual gambling system requires some form of scarcity to make rewards meaningful and valuable, I mean just think of how boring a casino would be if you always won the jackpot on the third pull of the lever on the slots machine.
I'll elaborate a little more by also talking about how I personally think a few users in this thread are too upset about the RNG system: I get it, RNG sucks, and it's especially annoying when you're, say, farming for something for hours and failing to get it despite the fact that it's a 10% drop rate and you've tried 40 times. So sure, be upset about RNG, but I see this system as having a key advantage over the standard types of RNG a lot of gamers think about from genres like RPGs: you have control over the pace! What I mean by that is that even if you're particularly unlucky with your dice rolls in Factorio, you can counteract that by just scaling up. Copy-paste more assembly lines, and watch the busy bees (with their improved pathfinding from FFF374!) replace the spooky ghosts with solid metal. If it turns out your raw resources, intermediates or logistics can't keep up, you scale those up too. Those things happen to be what the gameplay of Factorio is all about! It's not like when you're trying to get a Nargacuga Tailspear in MHR where you have to repeat a boss fight every time your imaginary dice roll low, each attempt taking a set amount of time that (although you can rush) isn't very adjustable.

I'm also seeing a lot of back and forth about "it's optional", "no it's not optional", but I don't see this system as entirely black or white, either. You get to use the Quality system as much as you like, it's not necessary to go all the way toward Legendary for every single assembler, inserter, and drill. You can sprinkle some Uncommon power poles here, a couple Epic turrets there, and maybe you'll set something up for a single Legendary portable fusion reactor to stick into your favorite octopod companion's equipment grid.

I'm excited, there's still around fifty more FFFs to go, and although this one already made me question what month it was when I first started reading it, there's still the actual April Fool's to come

[Losash]

1. Answering "It's bad" with "It's optional" is not the defense you seem to think it is.
2.And that seems like a good thing to you?

Answering "It's optional" is a clear and quick relief resort for bringing the hate down. I'm not judging people who won't use this powerful tool, probably same as they hated using beacons and modules 7-8 years ago, just opt out and live in your pink world of <100spm, thinking you've got a "large base". As well as I'm not sure if I should even start explaining that Expansion will definitely have more complex late game goals and scalability/transport problems between planets so going bigger than just finishing the "storyline" will 1000% require using quality system as well as other not yet mentioned boosts.

Regarding (2), 4 extra tiers are there just to make production of the last tier more challenging and interesting. It is obvious that in late game noone is going to use lower qualities. 4 is a good number, perfectly average. When you just start with this system, you've got options though, and intermediate qualities are viable. So they are not useless. Same as tier 1 and 2 of modules are not useless.

P.S. Once again a reminder that even if quality system affects science packs, and if it does the same x2.5 at max quality as in other spots, it is obvious even now that +100% from productivity modules at each intermediate stage will heavily outclass that potential bonus. And the whole quality system usage is going to be revolving around a small portion of the factory, which produces armor, equipment, building materials and modules. Quality is great in things which are made once (for large price) and then used for infinite production of something else - either it's components (produced by machines and their bonuses) or player experience (produced by better equipment).

[RedViper]

As well as I'm not sure if I should even start explaining that Expansion will definitely have more complex late game goals and scalability/transport problems between planets so going bigger than just finishing the "storyline" will 1000% require using quality system as well as other not yet mentioned boosts.

Now you're just contradicting yourself.

"Its optional, but actually it mandatory!"

Again, a bad system doesn't become good just because its optional.

[maxp779]

Ooft this was a divisive feature! For anyone around when they added bots and beacons and modules, were they equally divisive? I got this game after all those things were in place.

To add my opinion to the mix, in short I think it'll be fine lol. Min maxers and megabasers will find ways to maximize legendary production and trash everything else, im in that category. Regular players if they give quality a shot will probably have some fun with higher quality gun turrets and trying to get the best personal gear, I doubt they'd try to make their whole base legendary but who knows! Maybe they'll opt for a "good enough" strat and settle for one of the intermediate quality levels.

As for the naming of the quality items, on the plus side those terms are somewhat defacto standard among games in general (I could be wrong here but they seem awfully familiar!). On the negative side okay sure it doesn't really feel very "Factorio" I agree. I don't care one way or the other tbh it's not a huge deal on the naming.

[Losash]

"Its optional, but actually it mandatory!"

It is optional if you are a casual who just wants to complete the "storyline". It is mandatory if you want to go bigger or more efficient. What's the problem with reading what you've quoted? My post says exactly that. If you dislike the system, okay, you can play without it. Problems?

[bluemonk]

Hey,

little late, but I had to wait some days to rethink about the blog post. First of all I did not like it, but the Devs wrote "believe us, it is really fun". And even I was sceptical, they never disappointed us and I will trust this statement until I was able to convince myself.

First things first: Yes, names have to change!

Contentwise I think it makes sense: Better Quality Input will produce better quality output. Higher Quality machines, will produce higher quality output. - This makes perfect sense. Even the introduction of probability makes perfect sense. If I have bad input and a cheap machine, the chance that I create high quality output is close to zero, but not zero.

What I would really like to know is: How close can I get to 100%? If I have the highest quality input and the highest quality machine, what is the chance of the highest quality output? - The devs only showed "Example of the probabilities with 4 normal quality 3 modules."

Could you please post the probabilities for the other quality modules? I think this is crucial here. - If we can get up to 90%+ perfect output, if we have highest quality input and highest quality machine, I think it would make much sense.

Last but not least: Could you please explain how stacking in the inventory will be handled?

All the best
blue