Friday Facts #375 - Quality

[zibbozz]

I'm really looking forward to this feature. The quality system brings another way to get more out of my factory.

I'm a little shocked that so many people hate the feature, even though it's optional. I really hope that the team doesn't remove the feature after the negative feedback. Maybe there can be an option in the settings to turn it off completely. I would really miss this feature.

[TheEnemy42]

My honest unfiltered opinion:

This feels like someone played a few MMOs and thought, hey, how do we lure MMO players into playing our game - maybe with those needlessly grindy and boring features that they for some reason like in MMOs?

The "Strategy implications" section feels like an afterthought trying to make grind sound like an interesting feature. I feel everything described is already covered by the existing modules. It adds extra complexity for the sake of it, without adding any gameplay features.

Then again, maybe more players than I would expect will enjoy this grind. Maybe I'm missing something from the bigger picture but at least I can appreciate that it's an optional feature.


Happy weekend!

[kulg]

How will these qualities handle stacking? Especially wrt inserter hands. Will an inserter be slower, on average, if the quality levels are mixed?

This ^^^

If I have my row of turrets getting fed by a belt of standard red ammo in them and there's one magazine of higher quality on that belt... is it going to get all the way to the end because the inserters won't add them to the turrets?

If I deconstruct a factory block that has assemblers with 5 different quality levels... am I going to need 5 times the storage space to fit them in my logistics network?

Also this might be an error in translation but the words for the quality levels don't line up. They speak to rarity, not quality. You can craft a gear that is so bad it is the stuff of legend, that would still be a legendary gear.

Instead of Common, uncommon, rare, epic, and legendary like you would find in a loot table in an MMO or a gacha mobile game with loot crates and other unsavory practices.

Other options for the names would include words like:
- low, normal, medium, high, and very high, and perfect qualities
- standard, good, impressive, impeccable, and exceptional qualities
- apprentice, novice, intermediate, journeyman, and master craft (or masterful) qualities
- bronze tier, silver tier, gold tier, platinum, diamond qualities (though that might be confusing to have a bronze tier iron plate )
- Or finally the simplest and easiest way based on how the sprites look would be tier 1-5.

I really look forward to seeing what new and exciting quality levels the modding community comes up with. Depending on how the modding framework is set up we might even see diverging types of quality. Maybe this gear impacts the hp of a turret but this one impacts the damage or range. Kind of reminds me of the quality set up in Wayward. I have had so much fun farming for the perfect sticks to turn into tools in that game.

[aka13]

Also, humongous cringe at the fact, that there are dev replies on reddit, but 0 dev replies on the forum.
I look forward to the next time corporate overlords/reddit mods decide to lock it down.

[swagyums]

This is a really confusing addition to me. It just doesn't feel very "Factorio". It feels like it takes away from the entire point of mass production, now every generic item has its own quality which takes away from the interchangeability of everything. Just feels like it would be a very extraneous mechanic that would just frustrate me and yet I would be compelled to interact with it regardless. There are already different tiers of various items like assembling machines and electric poles, it's just an unnecessary layer.

Even though this system is optional and can be disabled, I fear that parts of the progression might be balanced around the player having higher quality items, so if you choose to play without it you're going to struggle more. Also the names and the icons are pretty silly. Surely better quality items could have their own sprite with minor additions? And a legendary iron gear wheel? It's kind of hilariously video-gamey.

[stergil]

It's a shame they wasted development time for such a "feature" but if it's really optional then all is good.

You have like 50 more FFFs before you should make that call. I expect this is foundational to a lot of the new stuff going into the expansion.

Do you choose between a slower space platform that gathers its own fuel or do you preload it with high quality rocket fuel and let it get there faster?

There are so many optimizations that this base system might unlock.

How many times have people whined about solar panels not putting out enough power? Well, now you have five tiers of them automatically. And if that isn’t enough power you can burn tier five nuclear fuel cells in a tier five nuclear reactor.

I think they just opened up Factorio in ways we can hardly imagine.

If it will be so important in the expansion then I'll will not buy the expansion.

what part of the single word "OPTIONAL" is confusing to you? It can be used and have an impact on your game - but you have to go out of your way to use it. Or you can play like normal and absolutely nothing will change.

You people crying about this being in the game and its presence potentially impacting your choice to buy the game blow my mind. Get a grip.

[DaDrunkCow]

People sure are overreacting over optional content. My first thought was also that this was some out-of-season April Fool's joke, but after some thought, the quality system is similar to production modules and beacon spamming. I've seen plenty of players who still don't use production modules and beacons to a great degree even though they provide a significant advantage. The same could be said here. Items tagged with quality will only enter your factory if you let it enter your factory, otherwise, it's just extra content to further min-max factory designs in the endgame.

[GrandMasterB]

I am afraid!

There are many things that disappointed me:
1. So far, each item had its own appearance and special function. Red arms grab objects further away. Blue ones are faster. The quality levels only change values but not functionality or visual appearance. Complexity without new game mechanics and without visual change of the appearance, always reduces the fun of the game.
2. All quality upgrades work with the same chance and all items have 5 levels. Whether that makes sense or not. This seems a bit uncreative.
3. The names don't disturb me so much, but they are still unnecessarily uninspiring. Especially rare items that you can make infinitely often!?
4. I think the upgrade and recyling process will be fun for a short time and then quickly become annoying.

True random additional properties would actually be cool. So you could breed better items and improve them by selection, sorting out items with undesirable properties. So you could actually try to make special items from special basic materials. For plants, you could also breed special types. So it could bring some kind of evolution and natural selection into the game.

Quality of products, efficiency of machines and optimal working points are essential factors in any engineering decision. I need to know I am an engineer You could work with waste heat or unwanted byproducts here, as some mods have done. The ratio between main and by-product could be optimized. You would have to build controllers that determine the optimum operating point. But this looks like a slot machine and not like high engineering.

It is a pity that here only standard game mechanics are used, where Factorio otherwise stands out so much from all normal games.

I am afraid! I am really really scared!

[jasongraph]

What happens if you craft something using different quality ingredients? Would your output quality be the minimum input quality, the maximum input quality, or some weighted average of the input qualities?

[Hi_ImKyle]

People clearly didn't read the whole thing. This entire system is optional. There's no one with a gun to your head saying you have to use it. Just don't unlock the quality modules and you play the game as if they were never there. Problem solved.

The names need changing 100%, a few suggested name sets are great but do not release this with the generic gacha tier names.

Be real here. The game will be balanced around their existence. It's basically telling players that the only way to go to the next level is to grapple with a huge RNG system. From there, players will now obsess over slowly replacing all their equipment with max quality variants. It will also be EVEN HARDER to reason about crafting speeds/ratios.

This is not a feature that can just sit there quietly in the background. It will overshadow everything we do.

Personally, I would welcome a world gen option that disables quality as a concept from the outset.

I'm not saying you will want to avoid it 100%, but for those who are complaining that they don't like it can just avoid using it through the entire game. They are acting like you can't play this expansion without it. You can play without it, it says at the end of the post. You can easily ignore quality modules if you just want to play Factorio like it is now. It's not like they are nerfing existing setups to force you to use this. It is optional

The expansion is balanced in a way that using quality can be beneficial, but it is reasonable to finish the game without touching quality at all.

If you don't like it, don't use it. Simple as.

[doktorstick]

Factorio is a sci-fi factory game, there's no reason why a solar panel should be "legendary". What legends are told about these solar panels?

Thanks. I needed a good chuckle.

[OdinEidolon]

It's a shame they wasted development time for such a "feature" but if it's really optional then all is good.

You have like 50 more FFFs before you should make that call. I expect this is foundational to a lot of the new stuff going into the expansion.

Do you choose between a slower space platform that gathers its own fuel or do you preload it with high quality rocket fuel and let it get there faster?

There are so many optimizations that this base system might unlock.

How many times have people whined about solar panels not putting out enough power? Well, now you have five tiers of them automatically. And if that isn’t enough power you can burn tier five nuclear fuel cells in a tier five nuclear reactor.

I think they just opened up Factorio in ways we can hardly imagine.

If it will be so important in the expansion then I'll will not buy the expansion.

what part of the single word "OPTIONAL" is confusing to you? It can be used and have an impact on your game - but you have to go out of your way to use it. Or you can play like normal and absolutely nothing will change.

You people crying about this being in the game and its presence potentially impacting your choice to buy the game blow my mind. Get a grip.

I was replying to someone who claimed that it will be foundational to the expansion, so please try to understand my reply in the context. If the quality system will be so foundational as Tricorius claimed then I will not buy the expansion. Otherwise if it will be some optional late game gimmick then I'll see whether or not buy the expansion.

[GrandMasterB]

What happens if you craft something using different quality ingredients? Would your output quality be the minimum input quality, the maximum input quality, or some weighted average of the input qualities?

As I understand it, there is a probability for each quality level. Each basic material of higher quality increases the probability to produce a product of higher quality. So far I don't see that there are limits in quality, only probabilities.

[JKv1]

People clearly didn't read the whole thing. This entire system is optional. There's no one with a gun to your head saying you have to use it. Just don't unlock the quality modules and you play the game as if they were never there. Problem solved.

The names need changing 100%, a few suggested name sets are great but do not release this with the generic gacha tier names.

Be real here. The game will be balanced around their existence. It's basically telling players that the only way to go to the next level is to grapple with a huge RNG system. From there, players will now obsess over slowly replacing all their equipment with max quality variants. It will also be EVEN HARDER to reason about crafting speeds/ratios.

This is not a feature that can just sit there quietly in the background. It will overshadow everything we do.

Personally, I would welcome a world gen option that disables quality as a concept from the outset.

The focus on the RNG part feels silly to me. If you are going to produce 100.000+ green circuits then you can very accurately calculate your production with the exact odds you have. RNG won't impact your production much, the more you produce, the lower the effective randomness will be. That's just how it works. The only real gambles will be with expensive/one-off items like MK2 power armor.

I read that "the quality of the ingredients is the base for the quality of the product." so a legendary Mk2 armor can be 'guaranteed' by using legendary materials at the time of crafting. Not very random. Atleast at the end.

[Ohz]

The different power poles are going to kill OCD people lol

[StansTheMan]

I disliked it at first, but now I'm warming up to the idea. Obviously it needs better sounding names and be less unpredictable.

I think this is already a better tiered productivity system than modules if it is a bit toned down on the effects. At least it's better than productivity modules, which are pure magic and some of the most ridiculous nonsense in the game, in contrast to Speed and Efficiency modules that atleast feel like true distinct functioning "modes" of a machine.

However, something has to be in place to ultimately boost production for the benefit of UPS.
-Tiered structures and assembling machines.
-Research on ore productivity.
-Modules.
-.. and now this. Quality products and intermediates and machines.
Four different systems that provide productivity bonus out of thin air. Imagine 200% productivity to the power of 4 = 1600%. This is getting out of hand.

I say, cut Prod modules entirely.
Cut the tiered assemblers that are solely reskins (Seriously, a grey->blue->green reskin? Come on.) Unless these are completely different-looking sprites to justify different recipes.
Keep the Ore productivity research.
Keep the quality levels. Higher quality ingredients don't increase productivity be themselves; the recipes always remain constant 100% output. Instead, they simply transfer the quality level into their subsequent intermediate product in the production chain. (Quality still modules increase quality).
These differing quality intermediates are ultimately utilized for two effects: To construct higher quality assemblers and machines etc. that have bonuses. Somehow they produce at a faster rate (throughput, not productivity; still the same 100% output).
And: Higher grade ingredients automatically result in greater scientific packs productivity since they serve as better "samples," or ingredients, eg: Quality 1 = 1x science pack. Quality 5 = 5x science packs.

Therefore, the same factory footprint may produce more research in a shorter length of time from the same ore fields (but not more inserters, belts, or rockets).

Lastly, the quality system should start with naturally different-quality ore fields or patches of different ore quality within the same ore field.
Those are then smelted into metal plates of higher quality, etc. Other planets have a higher typical quality of one type of ore than other ores and other planets, etc.

[EvanT]

The names.. well where is the language file?

The mechanic sounds very interesting. Getting bonuses besides "more stuff" from efford is certainly great.

To judge the RNG I would have to have first hand experience with it.
At least I do not need to farm rare materials at locations so far apart the travel alone takes hours to see it all wasted because the engineer had six bad dice rolls in a row. (Looking at Elite Dangerous) This sounds more like the hour or two it takes to kickstart the enrichment process and the next hours before it has produced enough so it can support a sufficient surplus.

From the filters used in the example recycling setup I would guess that it is more important what kind materials are used than what kind of quality module is present in the assembler.
So I assume something like:
"median quality of materials" + "quality module change" = "product quality"
Which makes the process a lot more calculateable than just pure RNG. Especially if the resulting quality can not be more than one level lower than the median input material quality.

[JKv1]

People clearly didn't read the whole thing. This entire system is optional. There's no one with a gun to your head saying you have to use it. Just don't unlock the quality modules and you play the game as if they were never there. Problem solved.

The names need changing 100%, a few suggested name sets are great but do not release this with the generic gacha tier names.

Be real here. The game will be balanced around their existence. It's basically telling players that the only way to go to the next level is to grapple with a huge RNG system. From there, players will now obsess over slowly replacing all their equipment with max quality variants. It will also be EVEN HARDER to reason about crafting speeds/ratios.

This is not a feature that can just sit there quietly in the background. It will overshadow everything we do.

Personally, I would welcome a world gen option that disables quality as a concept from the outset.

I'm not saying you will want to avoid it 100%, but for those who are complaining that they don't like it can just avoid using it through the entire game. They are acting like you can't play this expansion without it. You can play without it, it says at the end of the post. You can easily ignore quality modules if you just want to play Factorio like it is now. It's not like they are nerfing existing setups to force you to use this. It is optional

The expansion is balanced in a way that using quality can be beneficial, but it is reasonable to finish the game without touching quality at all.

If you don't like it, don't use it. Simple as.

I dont like it at all, but I will be reaping the rewards without attending the church of RNGesus!

[mmmPI]

Splitter 1 puts all "Epic" items to the right and sends them to splitter 2 which has the filter set to "Epic". How do items get into Assembly Machine 3 ? (They get in because they are in box 4)

Items going into assembly machines 3 are the 10% of items that gets upgraded in quality in the recycling process i guess,which could only happen if the filter we see on Splitter 1 is not "puts all Epic", but rather put "everything at least Epic" .

[GrandMasterB]

In process engineering there are also often circular processes in which the degree of purity of a substance is increased. The reduction of the impurity of the desired substance is therefore the goal of many real processes. A multistage chemical reactor in continuous or batch operation always has a product quality and energy efficiency. That is what I would have liked to see at this point.

When I think of quality, I think of a lot of things, but not necessarily these features announced here. Simply coloring a text purple, changing a few numbers and then thinking that changes the immersion or improves the gameplay has always been a wrong idea.