pY Alien Life - Discussion

[septemberWaves]

On the matter of inserters:

The changes to burner inserters (now mechanical inserters, due to the very sensible removal of any fuel requirement) are absolutely vital. Filtered inserters and underground belts can fully replicate the functionality of splitters; if either splitters or filtered inserters are not going to be present early on, then the other one must be present, because lacking both of them would make all but the simplest automation impossible and thus make the game cease to be fun for long enough that it'd be pointless to persevere through it. If any changes were to be made to the early game, mechanical inserters should not be altered at all - the only thing which could be changed about them without having destructive effects on gameplay would be adjusting their speed, but the current speed is fine; it's slow enough to encourage replacing them when possible, but just fast enough to still allow full automation of machines.

As for long inserters, to be honest I don't think it's that big a deal that they're inaccessible for so long. Having spent a long time playing through the early game, I've noticed that there are very few situations where long inserters would remove significant amounts of complexity (and thus cost) from a design. Most machines are large enough that a bit of belt weaving solves pretty much all need for long inserters, and the few machines that are too small for belt weaving to be practical are also lacking any recipes that would need it.

In general, I think the current balance of inserters in the early game is actually very good at achieving what it's trying to achieve. The current balance enhances the fundamental nature of the game (and especially of this modpack) as a logistical challenge. It requires innovative solutions and a good understanding of mechanical throughput, but, importantly, it doesn't prevent proper automation and logistics from being possible, it simply makes them difficult in a way which is interesting.

[factoriogame1121]

I subscribe under the words "ShadowScaleFTL"
I think that "bob inserters" is one of the must-have mods. And with it, the use of long inserters, with their turning speed identical to conventional inserters, but more expensive in cost, becomes meaningless.
Is it possible to somehow configure compatibility with this mod, but it is better to include his ideas in the modpack.

[Borszcz]

Hi,

trying to analyze the research "Casting 2" I do not really get the point of smelting everything directly, because it is not cheaper, sometimes it is even more expensive
For example, I get 75 Iron plates from 100 molten Iron, 50 hot air. From 75 iron plates I can get e.g. 75 pipes.
Not, if Icompare this with the direct recipy from the research "Casting 2" from 100 molten iron and 100 hot air I would get 76 pipes.
So only 1 pipe more for 50 hot air. I do not think this is worth it.
I would expect it to be cheaper to cast the pipes and all other stuff directly from molten iron.
Am I missing something, or what would be the advantage of doing that?

But I guess it is cheaper to get tinned cables from it if my math is correct.

[BlueTemplar]

I guess it hasn't been all (re-)balanced yet ?

There were indeed some issues there with pY AL «1.0».

On the matter of inserters:

The changes to burner inserters (now mechanical inserters, due to the very sensible removal of any fuel requirement) are absolutely vital. Filtered inserters and underground belts can fully replicate the functionality of splitters; if either splitters or filtered inserters are not going to be present early on, then the other one must be present, because lacking both of them would make all but the simplest automation impossible and thus make the game cease to be fun for long enough that it'd be pointless to persevere through it. If any changes were to be made to the early game, mechanical inserters should not be altered at all - the only thing which could be changed about them without having destructive effects on gameplay would be adjusting their speed, but the current speed is fine; it's slow enough to encourage replacing them when possible, but just fast enough to still allow full automation of machines.

Well, I generally agree that filtering should be available soon enough, though there are alternatives to lack of filtering through inserters or splitters:
- direct insertion has «built-in» filtering
- there are other tricks, for instance an «overpressured» chest with only 1 stack per ingredient can serve as a filter

Also, burner inserters can be made fun with mods like :
Inserter Fuel Leech

In addition to normal behaviour, all Inserters take fuel from entities containing a burner when they or their drop target have no fuel left.

Burner Fuel Bonus

Burner inserters and machines run faster if their fuel has an acceleration bonus.

Though I can see how for a total conversion modpack like pY it needs to be integrated with the rest of the gameplay...
(I am curious : since burner inserters are more complex than electric ones, is there any mod that makes them a high instead of low tech option ?)

As for long inserters, to be honest I don't think it's that big a deal that they're inaccessible for so long. Having spent a long time playing through the early game, I've noticed that there are very few situations where long inserters would remove significant amounts of complexity (and thus cost) from a design. Most machines are large enough that a bit of belt weaving solves pretty much all need for long inserters, and the few machines that are too small for belt weaving to be practical are also lacking any recipes that would need it.

What belt weaving ? Red belts are waaaaay farther still, aren't they ?
Also, as I already mentioned, it's in direct insertion setups that they really shine, since, as you said, pY machines are so freaking large that inserter speed is very rarely an issue.

In general, I think the current balance of inserters in the early game is actually very good at achieving what it's trying to achieve. The current balance enhances the fundamental nature of the game (and especially of this modpack) as a logistical challenge. It requires innovative solutions and a good understanding of mechanical throughput, but, importantly, it doesn't prevent proper automation and logistics from being possible, it simply makes them difficult in a way which is interesting.

Good to hear !

[septemberWaves]

Burner inserter fuel leech is not sufficient for Pymods now. The reason burner inserters cannot possibly work is because everything that burns a fuel now has an ash output, unless the fuel is one of a handful that produce no ash (none of which can be automated in the very early game when mechanical inserters are the only option).

What this means is that, if mechanical inserters were to be changed back to burner inserters, every single inserter would require another inserter to remove ash from it, until such time that you can automate a fuel source that doesn't produce ash. Each inserter removing ash from another inserter would also require an inserter to remove ash from it, and so on, and this is not something that is affected in any way by inserter fuel leech. It should not be difficult to understand why this would be a very bad situation: it would completely remove the ability to automate anything at all prior to the ability to automate an ash-free fuel source, due to the introduced requirement to manually remove ash from every inserter on the map as soon as it backs up. For anyone other than speedrunners, reaching this point already takes many hours across several days of gameplay. Removing the ability to automate anything properly for this amount of time would needlessly lengthen the amount of time required to reach a point where even the simplest automation is possible. This would be bad. Reintroducing the fuel requirement of mechanical inserters would completely kill any version of this modpack which includes the game mechanic of ash as a byproduct from burning - a game mechanic which, in its current state, is not a bad game mechanic at all.

[gavrielba]

I need help from the crowd-sourced brain, please!

I'm trying to find the most effecient electricity procurment and trying to figure out methods better than burning wood from tree farms in water boilers.

At the moment I'm checking getting biomass and burning that. There are SOOO many recycling recipes though. Have you gone through any of them? Did you find any routes which are more effecient than burning wood from tree farms?

Thanks!

[BlueTemplar]

Most likely !
Also later you might (still, in v2 ?) be able to profitably convert that biomass into things like raw coal (and helium 3, propene...) though that requires some quartz.
But it depends what efficient means to *you*, because there are multiple dimensions to consider.

For my part, in pY AL v1 with pY Pollution and Energy, I quickly ended up drowning in biomass anyway through a combination of depollution (mostly sap seeds as sap trees are so easy to plop down just anywhere) and sand separation recipe (and if I ever run out of biomass from both of them, I'll convert all that extra limestone into seaweed biomass...)

[gavrielba]

Another crazy thing I've just found.

Instead of burning wood it's better to convert it to coal gas and tar! And then burn those in oil burners to generate electricity.

BUT at the same time, it's still better to BURN raw coal than convert it to tar and coal gas! (OMG I WAS SO WRONG!! It's waaaay more effecient!!)

This is crazy how it's designed like that if it's on purpose!

Does anyone know how to calculate electricity usage in Foreman automatically?

[BlueTemplar]

What is Foreman ? No mods seem to correspond.

Helmod can now do it, for instance :

helmod_wood_to_syngas_power.png (141.5 KiB) Viewed 5284 times

helmod_wood_to_syngas_power_2.png (61.03 KiB) Viewed 5284 times

Code: Select all

H4sIAAAAAAAA/+1Z3Y6juBJ+lVH21iD8C2jEXuwjRHs3GkVOcDKoCUT8TE+rxbtvATaYxEl3uveoW2eHCwc7+HNV+atyUaTll7zcyfzLJnnO0mR1LFOVb2gg
4hUqHwtVJau/8lb9rY6nXFYrtIWnH+rkefjd4HGS7qxQIY8qWdWNkkdPFYesUG6UXdkWTYLRqXyE/0RIuIgJQ1lxqFSaqaKBFb6NOH9gwVffk2cLeoWapxN0
9nmbpQYsQA2gq0o2baUSmITqRjYqIR16hN/KIAwdJwLnNAh9EAR++hYTEOjU9tAjFEZNBhC4Q/VTcZD1JNTQuyLVEgKk+bbalTL3+hmTWtOIC4P5nIUspDyI
IsEEw0R5mJ4B0w6eflAz4IMyYBkYxmCFPg44IwAWigAHAY4Bi88YjZwM1Ui3mZwqnSpV12D41JNZNeu1HHYqR6g/mlu37KrReyPZBnPp5xDusSzTafPh3jUN
LKEn9ndnC3foVJVpu+tJqYDLhycDN/YMoOlpSE60WppSoRFpUujdDB9FJpRSS19Z/zBYcOvSVgS+bfFQiHOr/StEfwWXhB8RTHBABCWxiAWOHNR+i8+cixP0
GPCEWmJMIy4MSiPmC8zhZ2wvBLN2MqvKwit/Zama0a0xxy5wP15e+Cr8azzbaMwiPwoJjgLGMSZhhKPZBG/zoA5VapedFNBgrQP+GmJ9VqTqF3iJFVa9P2dC
a+htmeVqivgiIn7AMYnI0OI4Nr6VlQVg7eWuKavJv2CuNwJ4x4cAz47WZM3TDUztpWCE/kL1SakU0PPsmPWKwRnX5r06Hdq3Kj9jd4fUfq8Gbx8nBpOMP2FZ
6O7Kom6Pp0Fm+LPM83a8BwvL01umWR2f8WBxGXU2TdnA9lkz9Qgc1r7tzbHo0FZJWM5oNvbcu61txQZbwehxWyYMQZjZmM0IfG73N70ejewdxGXRpbCd5vBb
dFgTTTZiyEaQKw6N7JwOFOobfx1azm5SDHCyfTZnBEtuYYr92f+h5cZeFL9ErfF2c6qysuoJ8PzRxML07FpuCgsgWHAaX+wNDpc2YJ+dXvdosqaaZNSQjKHp
zPJGduxkj+GmW+TbZGN8GdGILxizaB3R+/hHuE8XbH4H/aaUbOaONz7kge4/JRyFCes+OUnDKOx9+jJ+nNmJhp+dpPdosmaapMyQlCN3ErQkJw5uxr40q5ss
lzDkZh8N/n+jXUzH3ODc/J8+uN0QfM01TbihiTijibevyqNnvwX9Jsx/mTCxJkxsCEPvSuexEL6wr9vpvJnszLQuoe7M4vWb0Qcn72SZvb+YvIeBH9mk45/+
4HqdDms8vSpO74qBsz7oLJ6IOPQZ5VEcji2/SSw34JJeF4DadvF974i6OrMsxHxw6Hppf4I3UOrj2BRADmr40hZ5VjyAZZqqVagu85+qGu+3Txttq2Qv81qd
7bpe6iLmwWumCGMWhXhoCUNg36PsqbRtszzNikNC+oLYqGGmhkL0eR3i+wsFikWxLaIdMln+tax/UYvkUYfmk/b62bss6cEeD4K4g+1iARFOtUfjNN9vudJy
chx1hk/9d4DXEqvrLGp0wx5bxX5dotc1JWKfQq+t1c+1uItitIYN0Tuq0gZ+LCdrxNgIeqOuPFWRYdWyrXbKUrePOKaOthBjof9Vlc/CoKxrddyCxxy8o9z9
gB30rtTMLDc3kefSfz8mavQBsVGHft5qC26y87RJ9JcnjGoAkQeVPNuCGPYOf3mA/jC9Q7NxlY3p9uTT8QHCSd2H0FXgxz6d0uYYi3G5DewQ1+XP/h5jx7eA
ZSH0zm8ChlZD1X6Zg72+ej9T3y5xj2iG9PeWuq+VtkfUCL2xxH3hDYNZ5yj8O+7+L+MuWh5ymsHT99c5p7g8KMGY/eO9IQBJ7nbtsV0YyhpyKkDF8BEGDnFZ
eSdZqNzS3hp0Kk/JO0wHk7vua6UgXSu+bL6qIv0HWxOJZPYeAAA=

[gavrielba]

Basically I've just realised there's an "Effeciency: 200%" stat on oil burner. Now I understand where's the boost from

[mrozpara]

Does anyone know how to calculate electricity usage in Foreman automatically?

If you click on "Show graph summary" => tab "Buildings" you will see energy usage/production

[gavrielba]

Petition to unlock this recipe at least one science level higher. Currently it's on 4th science. I'm on my second science atm and I am already struggly to deal with kerogene (byproduct of stone).

Also, 2nd science level is where coarse fraction is discovered and it fits well with sand and biomass production which can also be used first time at 2nd science.

If you click on "Show graph summary"

Yep, thanks! Found it under Power Consumption and Power Production at the top of the general window!

Also, while we're on the subject of moss - what's up with this recipe?

[mrozpara]

I am already struggly to deal with kerogene (byproduct of stone).

... turn it into shale oil and use as fuel for smelters. Or burn it directly for electricity and store ash for later (my calculations are showing that I will need a lot of ash for automation science...)

Also, while we're on the subject of moss - what's up with this recipe?

It has 2% rate of success (0.02) - but it's working fine. I've got it researched in previous version of mod (lower tech tier), so I was able to create Moss MK II, but I'm not using it until proper time

[gavrielba]

Man, I wish I could use moss02 now...

I wouldn't have a use for shale oil... I mean, aromatics are always more welcome but I have nothing to do with heavy oil and condensates.

Also I'm barely using smelters since my mining operation is at peak effeciency atm...

And I get plenty of "green" electricity...

Kerogene swamp is real...

(btw, for ash, I realised I could make a ton of flue gas very easily. And I've noticed there's a recipe to turn it into ash - would that help in the future?)

[factoriogame1121]

The process of getting "arqad" where you need to get "arqad queen" is impressive. Thank you

[gavrielba]

From changelogs 2.0.9:

- My body is stone. My voice, fire. The earth trebmles to my very presence. I am a god in human flesh. Despair, ye mortals

I AM IN DISPAIR!

Also, a newer update says "Updated wiki page for digosaurs". There's a wiki page??? Or do you mean the ingame guide?

[Necronium]

From changelogs 2.0.9:

- My body is stone. My voice, fire. The earth trebmles to my very presence. I am a god in human flesh. Despair, ye mortals

I AM IN DISPAIR!

Also, a newer update says "Updated wiki page for digosaurs". There's a wiki page??? Or do you mean the ingame guide?

There is ingame wiki, shortcut in top left corner

[mrvn]

Steam turbines are even better. All you need is an offshore pump, an electric boiler, a high pressure furnace and a steam turbine. Give it a bit of electricity to get started and then it produces tons of electricity for free.


The power production and consumption is really screwed up.

A burning assembler requires about the same amount of energy to run as the automatic factory needs when idle. The energy difference is way to high. Similar with other non vanilla buildings.

On the other hand the steam engines give barely any energy, the fuel consumption is just through the roof.

Next the oil burner is an improvement, that part is ok I think.

But steam turbines just produce way more energy than you put in. They are way overpowered resulting in the above perpetuum mobile, worse, it actually produces energy.

[atripp]

I'm using pY Alien Life 2.1.4 and having trouble getting Arqad production going.
I see no way to create Arqads that doesn't require even more arqads to create them.

5-10 arqads requires 2 arqad nests, which require 10 arqad maggots, which require 60 eggs, which require 32 arqads.
I don't see any simple recipe to produce arqads that doesn't ultimately depend on other arqads.
What am I missing?

[Wisey]

10 arqad maggots require 10 eggs (not 60) the recipe is 30 eggs for 30 maggots.