Steam

[ssilk]

I thought about the generators and steam. Currently I think the system is really nice. I like the steam engines.

Suggestions:
1. The pump doesn't need power to run. It should need electricity.
2. The "steam" is only 100 degrees hot and the generator runs with water only 15 degrees hot. Reality is, that it needs much more to run. I think the minimal temp should be 100 and the max temp 500 degrees.
3. Currently the output is limited by the "availability" (can't remember the exact word). Replace this with "pressure".
4. If the pump-pressure is too low (=too much water needed), it should blink/make this visible.

This should enable to understand the steam-system without reading.

[MF-]

1. would create really bad feedback loops, possibly making everything totally unstable.
Even those SteamEngine <-> coal mine feedback loops are pretty bad.

[Candunc]

1. The pump doesn't need power to run. It should need electricity.

Hmm, how will that work now. Need water to make electricity, need electricity to make water.

2. The "steam" is only 100 degrees hot and the generator runs with water only 15 degrees hot. Reality is, that it needs much more to run. I think the minimal temp should be 100 and the max temp 500 degrees.

It seems you don't understand the concept behind steam. When you evaporate water, this requires a heat of 100 C or below depending on your altitude. Once you hit this the water will evaporate and take up a LOT more space than it does in liquid form. Super heating steam is a waste of energy in this case, it will do very little to add to the energy. Also, as you lower the temp there will be still evaporation but on a much smaller scale.

3. Currently the output is limited by the "availability" (can't remember the exact word). Replace this with "pressure".

This was a feature in 0.4.0, but it seems to have been removed in 0.4.1. Currently water is infinite and depends on the temperature.

[MF-]

This was a feature in 0.4.0, but it seems to have been removed in 0.4.1. Currently water is infinite and depends on the temperature.

That is .. weird.. are sure about that?
Does the water stream not get thinner?

I cannot tell anymore, because I moved to solar power.

[wrtlprnft]

It seems you don't understand the concept behind steam. When you evaporate water, this requires a heat of 100 C or below depending on your altitude. Once you hit this the water will evaporate and take up a LOT more space than it does in liquid form. Super heating steam is a waste of energy in this case, it will do very little to add to the energy. Also, as you lower the temp there will be still evaporation but on a much smaller scale.

Actually, it makes sense to heat steam to more than 100°C.

Steam at higher temperatures will reach higher pressures. The boiling point of water is about 100°C at atmospheric pressures, but rises with higher pressures. See phase diagram of water. The liquid/vapor line crosses through (373 K, 10^5 Pa), if you wanted just 10^6 Pa (ten times atmospheric pressure), you'd already have to heat the water to about 200°C. More pressure means more force on your piston or turbine.

Additionally, steam cools as it expands, so you need a temperature reserve to not have it condense prematurely. Water or steam at just 100°C or below is useless in either a piston-based engine or a turbine.

Wikipedia claims that steam turbines have a typical entry temperature of 565°C.

[Dakkanor]

one thing that kovarex has pointed out is the fact that there is nothing specifying degrees celcius or anything, it could just be % of max temperature (could start at 0 kelvin which allows it lake water to be 15%)

[kovarex]

The main problem with making it real would be stability of the system from the gameplay point of view.
You have electric power plant producing X amount of power.
Your power demand rises for 1%, so the steam engines start to get more water, pumps heat it to 99 degrees instead of 100, and suddenly, you get 0 energy, while your boilers are processing all the coal trying the heat up the water.

[ssilk]

1. would create really bad feedback loops, possibly making everything totally unstable.
Even those SteamEngine <-> coal mine feedback loops are pretty bad.

Hm. In real power plant, it's a big problem to bring the hole process to work. The bigger it is, the bigger the problem. I think it should be part of the gameplay. But you are right: It makes it unstable. I have an idea to stabilize it:
How about having a "transformator"? It's used to split two power networks and delivers from network#1 to network#2 only, if there is enough energy in network#1 and too less in network#2 (= cannot deliver in both networks at the same time). Information shows also how much energy is deliverend in each direction. Maybe small flashes shows, in which direction the power is currently delivered. Transformators are available with the iron-working and needs much copper-cables and iron-plates.

By stacking transformators you can priorize energy-flow: First network is for the power plants, second is production and if then power is left it could go into condensator-array. Smart transformators can be used as "switch", using the circuit network to power on/off hole networks. "Diode Transformators" deliver energy only in one direction.

How cool could this be? You can switch on/off hole production-streets without wiring every inserter. Or you can switch on a production-street only, if you have enough power left. A transformator is maybe a must-have, if you want to deliver energy in multiplayer.

Hmm, how will that work now. Need water to make electricity, need electricity to make water.

Many possibilities:

1. A pump has a "minimum flow", even, if not powered which is enough to get the hole circle into flow (e. g. 10 pumps without electricity = 1 pump with). Maybe it's needed to cut the power lines to the production before restarting the hole cycle, if power has gotten too low. But I think this is a good game-element, when you include the transformator described above. And in real life for restarting a power plant very much energy is needed.
2. Add a "cole driven pump". I mean: This is the same like mining or inserters and just pure logic.
3. By adding water as new item in the game you can put water into pipes.

Additionally I would like to see not only the research-progress, I would also like to see the current state of the power-network (the one, which is most near by me).

In reply to wrtlprnft: I think making this as simple as possible should be an aim. I would add just as much calculations, that the behaviour has it's own logic and is more or less realistic. I think including the real behaviour of steam (expanding etc.) is a little bit too overengeneered.
In reply to Dakkanor: % of max. Temp. is a good idea. Real temperatures are just T * multiplicator + constant.

In reply to kovarex: As said above it should be just so realistic, that the gameplay wins, not looses. This means, that it's not needed to know the real temperature and pressure. But I think the player should get a "feeling" about how this works. He sees "Oh, this is not maximum, how could I get this to max; ah, when I try to maximize this, it lowers that...".

[wrtlprnft]

I never suggested to make things more complicated, I just tried to explain why it makes sense to heat water to >100°C.

If you really wanted to complicate factorio, you could try to explain the magic that makes transport belts move

[Aza-Industries]

I never suggested to make things more complicated, I just tried to explain why it makes sense to heat water to >100°C.

If you really wanted to complicate factorio, you could try to explain the magic that makes transport belts move

Hamsters.
I thought it was obvious.

[ssilk]

If you really wanted to complicate factorio, you could try to explain the magic that makes transport belts move

Yeah. And Alien-Hamsters are much better.

[To be serious I thought about it. In Factorio maybe belts needs to be connected at a point anywhere to energy. They don't need energy, but they need to be connected to.
And I thought to a second idea: Why should a belt not also be used as an energy pole? Or you will be enabled to built an energy pole over a belt. Will enable to clean up parts of the map by moving the poles into the belt, which makes space for new stuff or enables to built more elegant stuff.]

[ssilk]

Hamsters.
I thought it was obvious.

Receipts to get power from creepers:

Produce steel. Make a creeper-trap. Produce wheels. Make a big wheel. Catch Creepers in trap. Put them into wheel. Stand in front of it: Power enough for 10 plants.

Make a composter. Catch creepers into composter. Wait. They produce gas which can be fired. If you produce too much gas it can explode.

Make a creeper-trap. Make an elevator. Make a big tower, where can put the elevator in. Put the trap with the creepers into the elevator (at highest level). The elevator goes now down and produces energy. When the creepers die in the elevator, it gets lighter and returns back to the top.

Make fast belts. Put them on the entry of your fortress against the direction where the creepers come from. When the creepers run on the belt, they produce much energy.

[tonberrytoby]

I do like the idea of having superheated steam.
Not in a way that changes anything, but giving you an idea of the leftover capacity of your turbine system.

Right now you see 100 degrees at your last engine no matter if you use 99% or 1 % of your available steam heat.

If steam can have over 100 degrees, then you can see you are close to capacity that way.

[MF-]

Receipts to get power from creepers:

Produce steel. Make a creeper-trap. Produce wheels. Make a big wheel. Catch Creepers in trap. Put them into wheel. Stand in front of it: Power enough for 10 plants.

Make a composter. Catch creepers into composter. Wait. They produce gas which can be fired. If you produce too much gas it can explode.

Make a creeper-trap. Make an elevator. Make a big tower, where can put the elevator in. Put the trap with the creepers into the elevator (at highest level). The elevator goes now down and produces energy. When the creepers die in the elevator, it gets lighter and returns back to the top.

Make fast belts. Put them on the entry of your fortress against the direction where the creepers come from. When the creepers run on the belt, they produce much energy.

+1