Oddity in Belt Efficiency

[oyunbagimlisi]

I've asked similar questions before, and they've been asked. But I really don't get it. For example, in the past, situations such as austerity were mentioned regarding the problem I will talk about... But there is a much more obvious "extraordinary" here in my opinion.

*The output of 6 (mk3) copper mounts is 30 i/s (1 full red stripe)

*Required density for 3 assembly machines / 3 inserters is 15 i/s

=(far side of red belt only) (Inserters leave far side.) (15i/s)

The splitter after the 3rd machine is set to drop first on the proximal side of the belt. (50% (15i on the near side-15i on the far side) as the next 3 machines will exit to the far side

But the red belt is not enough. Machines are bottlenecked. As a solution, they always told me to upgrade. Yes, the Blue belt (raising the inserter if needed, etc.) does work. But I really don't understand why our knowledge in theory doesn't work out in practice.

[Koub]

What you write is very theoretical. My guess is that the last inserters have to wait for some room on the belt to drop the cables. So they don't swing as often as you would think, and the AM3 that produce cables wait for the inserters to take cables out for too long.

I would :
- either add a stack inserter (or maybe just a fast inserter) to the fast inserters that unload the cables on the belt from 6 AM3 that produce cables.
- or insert into underground belts. If you insert into belt-to-ground or ground-to-belt, you can insert more easily.

[Stringweasel]

Have you tried letting the copper cable belt back up first, and then allow the red circuit assemblers to start picking it up? It might have the capability, but because the margins are so incredibly tight it will take forever to reach equilibrium, because the first assemblers' buffers need to be filled.

[oyunbagimlisi]

Have you tried letting the copper cable belt back up first, and then allow the red circuit assemblers to start picking it up? It might have the capability, but because the margins are so incredibly tight it will take forever to reach equilibrium, because the first assemblers' buffers need to be filled.

The problem isn't just that the red-circuit machines get wires. Under all circumstances, the 6 copper assemblers on the top turn yellow. (Can't sign out!) When I upgrade their debut belt from red belt to blue belt, the problem is solved. (6 machines at the bottom exit to the blue belt. 6 machines at the top exit to the red belt.)

The red belt should have been enough for the output of 6 machines (30 i/s). But it's not enough!

[oyunbagimlisi]

What you write is very theoretical. My guess is that the last inserters have to wait for some room on the belt to drop the cables. So they don't swing as often as you would think, and the AM3 that produce cables wait for the inserters to take cables out for too long.

I would :
- either add a stack inserter (or maybe just a fast inserter) to the fast inserters that unload the cables on the belt from 6 AM3 that produce cables.
- or insert into underground belts. If you insert into belt-to-ground or ground-to-belt, you can insert more easily.

The blue inserter is fine. No need for stack inserter. The problem is they don't fit on the belt. I don't understand why they don't fit. To explain it more easily, I made 6 independent machines above, as you can see, they do not work with 100% performance. 86% performance

[oyunbagimlisi]

What you write is very theoretical. My guess is that the last inserters have to wait for some room on the belt to drop the cables. So they don't swing as often as you would think, and the AM3 that produce cables wait for the inserters to take cables out for too long.

I would :
- either add a stack inserter (or maybe just a fast inserter) to the fast inserters that unload the cables on the belt from 6 AM3 that produce cables.
- or insert into underground belts. If you insert into belt-to-ground or ground-to-belt, you can insert more easily.

The blue inserter is fine. No need for stack inserter. The problem is they don't fit on the belt. I don't understand why they don't fit. To explain it more easily, I made 6 independent machines above, as you can see, they do not work with 100% performance. 86% performance

It partially works... (it has increased to 99% efficiency. But I don't want to WASTE and put an additional inserter or stack inserter when the blue inserter seems adequate to the theoid. Or I don't want to spoil the image. I want to stick to the theory. I'm not results oriented.






Adding inserters indirectly increases the efficiency of the belt (as it carries the items in their inserters for a while), but why is it needed? The far side of the belt (15i) for 3 machines, the near side of the belt (15i) for the remaining 3 machines!!!

Red belt: 30 i/s: (near side 15i+far side 15i)
3 assembly machines: 15 i/ near side of the belt
3 assembly machines: the far side of the 15 i-belt.
1 red strap should be enough for 30 items. It isn't happening!

[jodokus31]

The problem is likely, that you can't compress the belts perfectly like that.
You can try to put one blue belt(s) where the 3rd inserter per lane is outputting.

[SoShootMe]

What I see with the third copper wire assembling machine on the north row is:

1. The output inserter is often delayed in placing items due to items already on the belt. Sometimes, this delay is sufficiently long that the assembling machine stops because its output is full. This inevitably "loses" some potential output.
2. The input inserter also stops because the assembling machine's output is full.
3. A bit later, the output inserter empties its hand, and swings back to pick up more items. When it does so, the assembling machine can start crafting.
4. Sometimes, the assembling machine doesn't have any input because of #2. So there is a further delay for input to be provided before the assembling machine starts crafting, "losing" more potential output.

Basically the behaviour makes it difficult to completely fill a belt lane. The only general fix I've found is to buffer the output and/or merge sources, eg the following will completely fill the inside lane of the north copper wire belt:

copperwire.PNG (90.92 KiB) Viewed 3224 times

This is hardly elegant (and in any case only solves the problem for one lane); maybe you can find a better arrangement.

[oyunbagimlisi]

What I see with the third copper wire assembling machine on the north row is:

1. The output inserter is often delayed in placing items due to items already on the belt. Sometimes, this delay is sufficiently long that the assembling machine stops because its output is full. This inevitably "loses" some potential output.
2. The input inserter also stops because the assembling machine's output is full.
3. A bit later, the output inserter empties its hand, and swings back to pick up more items. When it does so, the assembling machine can start crafting.
4. Sometimes, the assembling machine doesn't have any input because of #2. So there is a further delay for input to be provided before the assembling machine starts crafting, "losing" more potential output.

Basically the behaviour makes it difficult to completely fill a belt lane. The only general fix I've found is to buffer the output and/or merge sources, eg the following will completely fill the inside lane of the north copper wire belt:

copperwire.PNG

This is hardly elegant (and in any case only solves the problem for one lane); maybe you can find a better arrangement.

I understand better. The picture really helps: 30 books can fit in a bookcase, but fewer books can fit in a messy place. Installers, on the other hand, cannot perform a "systematic/holistic" action: they simply release products "randomly". This causes the belt to carry loads below its maximum power. (I think 4 people can sit in the back of a car, but only 1 person can fit in the lying position.) Thank you everyone for all the answers. I think my obsessive side will prevail over my challenge-loving side and I will use mods about inserter pick-and-drop positions. Because I don't want to spoil the image. Besides, I think it should have been vanilla to determine the pick-drop position of the installers. For example, the KR2 mod, which I found extremely realistic (not op), included this. (far-near placement)

[Tertius]

The output of 3 copper cable assemblers is able to fill one red belt lane completely if perfectly compressed. However, if you just output 3 assemblers in a row to one belt lane, the 3rd output will stall, because the belt is 2/3 full and items are not moving fast enough to always get a gap for the 3rd inserter to fill. The output buffer of the 3rd assembler gets full faster than the next gap is available.

A little bit of belt buffering and intelligent sideloading is required to create a fully compressed belt, here shown in the first row. For comparison, the 2nd row without belt management, and you see the gaps. If you carefully observe the output of the 3rd+6th assembler, you will see their output is sometimes full, and this is what reduces output below 30 items/s.

out.gif (9.8 MiB) Viewed 3189 times

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Copy blueprint

This kind of sideloading to fully compressed belts isn't invented by me, I first saw it here: viewtopic.php?f=202&t=83879 where it is used to effortlessly create a fully compressed blue belt.

[FuryoftheStars]

because the belt is 2/3 full and items are not moving fast enough to always get a gap for the 3rd inserter to fill.

I think it's a bit more to do with the timing of the gaps. Some of the gaps are passing as that third inserter is swinging around to grab more. Aside from the side loading technique, I believe having a second inserter offloading for assemblers 3 & 6 could potentially help with this, too (as the second inserter would be able to offload into those gaps the first one misses).

Interesting to note, once upon a time, side-loading really was the only way to get fully compressed belts. I believe there were enough people that didn't like this ("too ugly"/"used too much room") that the devs eventually improved the inserter-to-belt logic so it could insert into smaller gaps.

[oyunbagimlisi]

The output of 3 copper cable assemblers is able to fill one red belt lane completely if perfectly compressed. However, if you just output 3 assemblers in a row to one belt lane, the 3rd output will stall, because the belt is 2/3 full and items are not moving fast enough to always get a gap for the 3rd inserter to fill. The output buffer of the 3rd assembler gets full faster than the next gap is available.

A little bit of belt buffering and intelligent sideloading is required to create a fully compressed belt, here shown in the first row. For comparison, the 2nd row without belt management, and you see the gaps. If you carefully observe the output of the 3rd+6th assembler, you will see their output is sometimes full, and this is what reduces output below 30 items/s.

out.gif

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

Copy blueprint

This kind of sideloading to fully compressed belts isn't invented by me, I first saw it here: viewtopic.php?f=202&t=83879 where it is used to effortlessly create a fully compressed blue belt.

Great answer, thank you. Moving pictures are really good tutorials.