We support Ukraine

[Vintors]

There is no point in entering into a discussion, everyone will still have their own opinion.
Anyone who wants to understand the current situation will be able to find information on their own.

Approximate chronicle of events:
https://24.kg/obschestvo/225024_hronolo ... _ukrainyi/
https://vnnews.ru/maydan-kak-yeto-bylo- ... toriya-kr/
https://ria.ru/20141231/1040986726.html
https://www.rbc.ru/politics/21/11/2016/ ... 7ffe42486a
https://lenta.ru/articles/2015/01/07/ua/

[tuhe]

Wow.

I mean you gained my respect by publicly speaking against cancel culture but now this public declaration to stand with Ukraine. Do you know they literally have Nazis in their military fighting right now? That's not russian propaganda because I've already seen that on german TV 5 years ago way before this current war.

edit: They must have really scared you after that tweet.

Hi,

Are you from Europe? With all due respect, cancel culture is a minor thing compared to Russia regressing back to 19th century, but with nukes and a leader who sounds like he lost touch with reality. Even from relatively safe western Europe this is bringing up memories of a very dark chapter of our history, and it is likely to reshape the world as much as 9/11 did.

Quite frankly there is an Irony here. I take it you are not a big fan of so-called cancel culture, which afaik is about people with too thin skin trying to silence things they don't like because of stupid crap they have done or politics. Well, aren't you objecting to a donation link to help civilians who are quite literally being blown up as we speak, because of ... politics? You don't like other people helping other people? Would you like the Factorio devs to cancel the link? .


With regards to the Nazis -- as many have pointed out this has been discussed endlessly in this thread. Yes, the Azov Batallion contains (about) 20% right-wing nazis, including people from outside Ukraine and inside. But what of it? You can find Nazis and Islamists in all countries in Europe. Isn't it a far better indication to look at how right-wing views are represented in the Ukrainian parliament? (if you are not familiar with European politics, all right-wing parties dream of getting into parliament, and many countries you would consider to be stable democracies have strong right-wing representation).

[enterisys]

There is no point in entering into a discussion, everyone will still have their own opinion.
Anyone who wants to understand the current situation will be able to find information on their own.

Approximate chronicle of events:

More reliable sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas

[enterisys]

Yes, the Azov Batallion contains (about) 20% right-wing nazis, including people from outside Ukraine and inside. But what of it? You can find Nazis and Islamists in all countries in Europe.

Source?
And 20% of what? 1000?
And why are they nazis and not nationalists?

[tuhe]

Yes, the Azov Batallion contains (about) 20% right-wing nazis, including people from outside Ukraine and inside. But what of it? You can find Nazis and Islamists in all countries in Europe.

Source?
And 20% of what? 1000?
And why are they nazis and not nationalists?

The number 20% was from memory from wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion
I think it is fairly well established from outside sources it has attracted some nazis, and at the same time, it has government support. There are also instances of mistreatment of POWs by pro-Ukrainian groups according to sources I would consider trustworthy:

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... er-forces/

I personally believe that it is quite un-controversial that groups such as the Azov battalion gain legitimacy and the possibility to operate because Russia and the pro-Russian thugs first smashed up the Ukrainian civil government in these regions; there are instances of similar dynamics in e.g. occupied Poland during WW2. But as a matter of rhetoric, it is IMO much better to just state these things upfront. The Russian propaganda can only tar the entirety of Ukrainian society as being Nazi because they don't want to discuss the (actual) extent of right-wing extremism in Ukraine in detail. This would also be very uncomfortable since it is a discussion that would involve Russian neo-nazi groups which are much larger.

[mmmPI]

There is no point in entering into a discussion, everyone will still have their own opinion.
Anyone who wants to understand the current situation will be able to find information on their own.

Having a discussion is not the same as trying to make people change mind. For example one could try and understand why someone that doesn't change his mind is so stubborn. Why one would be convinced he has truth ? in other word, what makes you think this is true ? can you explain it to yourself and other ? Are you familar with the concept of info-bubble ? How would you know you are not in one ?

There would be more to discuss if you could do so. But posting links repeatdly and also at the same time explaining that people can inform themselves is not consistent. Why are you doing so ? it's not necessary according to your own word. Is it in order for people to change mind ? so that they start supporting the war ?

If you say people can inform themselves, why ONLY post link to russian state-censored press ? to make easier for them to understand how non-independant media can distort the perception of a society ? that could be another reason.

Don't you think maybe the attacking side that is russia have a legitimizing discour for their action which is akin to war propaganda where you say your ennemy is evil so that you allow yourself morally and ethically to consider violence as legitimate ? even if you have to make things up for that ? sounds familiar ?

Also you imply everyone has already an opinion on the subject, which is not the case, why would they ? It's only in Russia that public opinion was prepared to accept a war of agression against Ukraine while at the same time denying there would be one, and then switching stance saying it's "legitimate special operation". which should raise some flag to critical minds.

I think on the contrary a discussion is useful because some people are not coming here with a point-of-view they want to spam, actually regular user of the forum would not use it to inform themselves, it's the only topic that is not about the game. They could be interested to discuss with people that are not here to only push their own point of view.

I'm highly suspicious when i see someone like you only posting on this particular topic, some links are full video in french without subtitle, but you don't answer in french. Which makes me think you just copy paste things even if you don't understand them such as one would pass a list of pre-selected links to try to spread selected facts to support a narrative.

The country that is attacked militarily has to defend militarily, you are trying to make Ukraine need to defend its reputation too ?

[enterisys]

The number 20% was from memory from wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion
I think it is fairly well established from outside sources it has attracted some nazis, and at the same time, it has government support. There are also instances of mistreatment of POWs by pro-Ukrainian groups according to sources I would consider trustworthy:

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... er-forces/

I personally believe that it is quite un-controversial that groups such as the Azov battalion gain legitimacy and the possibility to operate because Russia and the pro-Russian thugs first smashed up the Ukrainian civil government in these regions; there are instances of similar dynamics in e.g. occupied Poland during WW2. But as a matter of rhetoric, it is IMO much better to just state these things upfront. The Russian propaganda can only tar the entirety of Ukrainian society as being Nazi because they don't want to discuss the (actual) extent of right-wing extremism in Ukraine in detail. This would also be very uncomfortable since it is a discussion that would involve Russian neo-nazi groups which are much larger.

Yes reference indeed states that 10%-20% of new recruits are neonazi. But then again they state that they are nationalistic battalion and that these new recruits do not represent the ideology of the battalion. And considering 80-90% of the battalion are nationalistic you hardly can call whole Azov as nazi.
With the same assurance I can claim that McDonald's is neonazi because it has nazi employees.

[makrom]

There is no point in entering into a discussion, everyone will still have their own opinion.
Anyone who wants to understand the current situation will be able to find information on their own.

Approximate chronicle of events:
https://24.kg/obschestvo/225024_hronolo ... _ukrainyi/
https://vnnews.ru/maydan-kak-yeto-bylo- ... toriya-kr/
https://ria.ru/20141231/1040986726.html
https://www.rbc.ru/politics/21/11/2016/ ... 7ffe42486a
https://lenta.ru/articles/2015/01/07/ua/

Big surprise, let's just ignore what Yanukovych did to Ukraine, he was friendly to Russia so he must be a good guy. Let's ignore the Russian fuelled insurgency, the MH-17 cover up, how unilateral the decision to annex Crimea was, yadda yadda...
And let's just trust Russian sources where any journalist who doesn't support the Kremlin propaganda can easily end up dead (by pure coincidence, of course) or sent to a camp (for completely unrelated "crimes", sentenced by the "independent" Russian "justice" system), so why should we not rely that they will tell nothing but the truth?
This kind of ignorance is just pathetic. You can dig your head as deep into Russian propaganda as you want, but attempting to hide from the world how despicable Russian leadership acts by spreading its constant paranoia how they have to defend against the oh so evil West is just futile (ok maybe not the whole world, you might find some like minded sheep in similar dictatorships).

[mmmPI]

With the same assurance I can claim that McDonald's is neonazi because it has nazi employees.

but if spam many links with pictures of that employee and some of his friend with the same ideology ?

How can McDonald proove it's not a neonazi corp ?

I think in justice the person who makes the claim should proove them, otherwise people are considered innocent, one can only answer question honnestly to proove his goood faith.

But let think this a bit more. Why in a situation of a aggression should we listen to the "motives" of the aggressor ? Imagine other situation where someone aggresses someone else, and now we start to look at what was wrong in the person who got attacked ?

Like if you beat up your kid maybe he was noisy ? we should measure the noise ? i'm not quite sure why would someone repeatdly say something like "kids are noisy" "kids are noisy".

Why is there even a debate trying to justify anything ? like someone is accused of something ? Who should be defending itself do you think ?

[tuhe]

The number 20% was from memory from wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion
I think it is fairly well established from outside sources it has attracted some nazis, and at the same time, it has government support. There are also instances of mistreatment of POWs by pro-Ukrainian groups according to sources I would consider trustworthy:

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... er-forces/

I personally believe that it is quite un-controversial that groups such as the Azov battalion gain legitimacy and the possibility to operate because Russia and the pro-Russian thugs first smashed up the Ukrainian civil government in these regions; there are instances of similar dynamics in e.g. occupied Poland during WW2. But as a matter of rhetoric, it is IMO much better to just state these things upfront. The Russian propaganda can only tar the entirety of Ukrainian society as being Nazi because they don't want to discuss the (actual) extent of right-wing extremism in Ukraine in detail. This would also be very uncomfortable since it is a discussion that would involve Russian neo-nazi groups which are much larger.

Yes reference indeed states that 10%-20% of new recruits are neonazi. But then again they state that they are nationalistic battalion and that these new recruits do not represent the ideology of the battalion. And considering 80-90% of the battalion are nationalistic you hardly can call whole Azov as nazi.
With the same assurance I can claim that McDonald's is neonazi because it has nazi employees.

With the comment that I did the opposite of calling `the whole` Azov battalion nazi I agree.

[Vintors]

One more time. English is not my native language. Translators don't translate accurately.
Links to Russian because this information is only there. A simple example was recently, the Tochka-u missile was shot down over Donetsk, the European media did not write anything about it.
In 2014 there was a coup d'etat.
The current President Viktor Yanukovych, in order to avoid numerous victims, concluded an agreement with the opposition on the settlement of the political crisis, the guarantors were
Germany, France, Poland. However, the opposition violated the agreements — the very next day, taking advantage of the absence of Yanukovych in Kiev, who, fearing for his life, went to the east of Ukraine, the oppositionists took control of the parliament.
This is how the EU believes in the agreements, this is the background.
Who told you that Russia would make excuses?
Putin clearly said that since Russia has not received security guarantees, it means that it will provide them by demilitarization and denazification.
In a simple way, Russia will destroy the APU and the National Battalions if they do not drop their weapons. But the USA provided a great opportunity to click them on the nose, with biolabs.
About which the Western media are silent.

[mmmPI]

Translators don't translate accurately. Links to Russian because this information is only there.

smart !

This is how the EU believes in the agreements, this is the background.

Thanks for providing the context, i thought it was complicated but now i realize i just have to trust your words, or read the russian media if i'm not convinced.

I thought it could be interesting to read by myself the 2 version, then inform on facts, and make my own opinion.

You think it's true because you read it from a party that have an interest in the reporting of the event it's like when you buy a car and you ask the sellor if the car is good. If you want to have a better idea your will try to compare different car, because every sellor say its car is a good car when he try to sell it.

Who told you that Russia would make excuses?

No-one told me that, i figure it out myself, that's called lying. There situations where it's very obvious one person has an interest in lying, like when you invade a country that never declared any war, bombing civilian infrastructures, making 3 million people flee their country, you need to come up with some kind of justification to the world to not look like a total barbarian. Therefore it seems pretty logical to me that one would try to prepare a speech to explain its action and try justify himself, using a lawier like the videos that was posted often time earlier. The russian narrative is well known since it's repeated so often.

It doesn't mean it's true.

Putin clearly said that since Russia has not received security guarantees, it means that it will provide them by demilitarization and denazification.
In a simple way, Russia will destroy the APU and the National Battalions if they do not drop their weapons. But the USA provided a great opportunity to click them on the nose, with biolabs.
About which the Western media are silent.

It's because your english is very bad i think that you missed some information about the russian allegations, they were dismissed in the UN security council because there was no proof provided.

[tuhe]

In 2014 there was a coup d'etat.
The current President Viktor Yanukovych, in order to avoid numerous victims, concluded an agreement with the opposition on the settlement of the political crisis, the guarantors were
Germany, France, Poland. However, the opposition violated the agreements — the very next day, taking advantage of the absence of Yanukovych in Kiev, who, fearing for his life, went to the east of Ukraine, the oppositionists took control of the parliament.
This is how the EU believes in the agreements, this is the background.

It is true there was an agreement. It is also true that Russia did not sign it. So this is what happened:

• VY was generally corrupt and very unpopular. His regime was responsible for shooting about 100 protesters.
• Russia refuses to sign it. Representatives of EU, VY and opposition leaders sign it
• BEFORE signing the agreement, VY prepares to flee Ukraine, possibly because he feels he has lost the support of RU.
• VY flees and the rest is history.

What the hell is EU supposed to do? Beg VY to return?

The way I am reading it is corrupt and unpopular scumbag flees country because he is afraid of the consequences of all the stealing, killing, and repression. I understand why Putin holds this up as a terrible outcome.

[enterisys]

Links to Russian because this information is only there. A simple example was recently, the Tochka-u missile was shot down over Donetsk, the European media did not write anything about it.

Actually every western newspaper did write about russians bombing civilians in cities. If you check photos of debris and try to geolocate it you will be pleasantly surprised that it was shot from russian side.
Also compare pictures from Donetsk to Kharkiv. It is pretty clear who is bombing who.
And why russian media never post of Kharkiv or Mariupol bombings?

[jodokus31]

In 2014 there was a coup d'etat.
The current President Viktor Yanukovych, in order to avoid numerous victims, concluded an agreement with the opposition on the settlement of the political crisis, the guarantors were
Germany, France, Poland. However, the opposition violated the agreements — the very next day, taking advantage of the absence of Yanukovych in Kiev, who, fearing for his life, went to the east of Ukraine, the oppositionists took control of the parliament.
This is how the EU believes in the agreements, this is the background.

It is true there was an agreement. It is also true that Russia did not sign it. So this is what happened:

• VY was generally corrupt and very unpopular. His regime was responsible for shooting about 100 protesters.
• Russia refuses to sign it. Representatives of EU, VY and opposition leaders sign it
• BEFORE signing the agreement, VY prepares to flee Ukraine, possibly because he feels he has lost the support of RU.
• VY flees and the rest is history.

What the hell is EU supposed to do? Beg VY to return?

The way I am reading it is corrupt and unpopular scumbag flees country because he is afraid of the consequences of all the stealing, killing, and repression. I understand why Putin holds this up as a terrible outcome.

Only (swiss)german, but youtube can translate:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sMfNmx0wKo

[tuhe]

Only (swiss)german, but youtube can translate:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sMfNmx0wKo

Hey man! Thanks for the link!
Only Swahili, but youtube can translate:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Tj20Q39nwA

[enterisys]

Suddenly Bosnia is full of Nazis as well.
https://willemvincken.wordpress.com/202 ... ns-bosnia/

[jodokus31]

Only (swiss)german, but youtube can translate:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sMfNmx0wKo

Hey man! Thanks for the link!
...

I don't know any better english speaking experts, if I find one, i'll let you know.

[tuhe]

Suddenly Bosnia is full of Nazis as well.
https://willemvincken.wordpress.com/202 ... ns-bosnia/

But there is also good news for the Balkans, Serbia got the all-clear on the Nazi front.

[mmmPI]

I just realized that despite denying being at war with Ukraine, the russian diplomat still argue the Geneva convention should apply to their captured soldier. While at the same time abducting civilian elected mayors and bombing hospitals.