We support Ukraine

[enterisys]

If this will not be moderated at least you people will see how ordinary russian people and bots supporting them are brainwashed by fear instilled by Putin.
Fear is his most efficient instrument and without it he is effortless and can only bomb civilians with just as he did in 2014-2015 in russian occupied territores (as recorded by OSCE, both sides were braking ceasefire).
Please, do not fear him as his brainwashed russian citizen fear lies about Ukrainian nukes. Ukraine was 3rd in the world by nuke capacity at 1991 but we gifted them to russia because all we want is peace at our garden.

Edit: I guess this nuclear stuff is the newest agenda.
https://twitter.com/DmytroKuleba/status ... 9888418825

[MOP3E]

If this will not be moderated at least you people will see how ordinary russian people and bots supporting them are brainwashed by fear instilled by Putin.
Fear is his most efficient instrument and without it he is effortless and can only bomb civilians with just as he did in 2014-2015 in russian occupied territores (as recorded by OSCE, both sides were braking ceasefire).
Please, do not fear him as his brainwashed russian citizen fear lies about Ukrainian nukes. Ukraine was 3rd in the world by nuke capacity at 1991 but we gifted them to russia because all we want is peace at our garden.

Residents of Donbass affectionately call the OSCE the Society of the blind. Because the OSCE turns a blind eye to the war crimes of the Ukrainian Nazis. Now the abandoned positions of the Ukrainian military are finding documents confirming that the OSCE transmitted information to the Ukrainian Nazis about the location of the military forces of the People's Militia of Donbass.

[Wiwiweb]

Eight years ago, the Ukrainian Nazis, with the support of the United States, organized a coup in Ukraine, overthrew the legitimate President and began persecuting Russians.
Eight years ago, horrified by this, Crimea seceded from Ukraine.
Eight years ago, Ukrainians from Donbass tried to draw attention to the problem of Russians in Ukraine.
Eight years ago, Ukrainians in the Donbas were killed by Ukrainian Nazis.

Jesus... it's scary to live in such an alternate reality.

That person will probably dismiss anything contradictory as "western media", even Wikipedia, but I think it might be useful for anyone else to have it decrypted, since you will hear these talking points often online:

"organized a coup in Ukraine" -> The people of Ukraine overthrew a corrupt pro-Russia president after a bloody revolution that left 100 dead.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity

"Crimea seceded from Ukraine" -> Russia annexed Crimea as a response to the revolution.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexatio ... Federation

"Ukrainian from Donbas were killed by Ukrainian Nazis" -> Russia sent people, material, and later troops to essentially wage a proxy war against Ukraine in Donbas. It was not a civil war.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas


"with the support of the United States"
"the United States began to build two military bases in Ukraine."
"the United States began pushing the Nazi government of Ukraine to create an atomic bomb"
For those I don't even have a link to reality, because they are just pure fabrication as far as I can tell. I don't even see anything relevant on Google.

[enterisys]

Residents of Donbass affectionately call the OSCE the Society of the blind. Because the OSCE turns a blind eye to the war crimes of the Ukrainian Nazis. Now the abandoned positions of the Ukrainian military are finding documents confirming that the OSCE transmitted information to the Ukrainian Nazis about the location of the military forces of the People's Militia of Donbass.

Need to correct you there brother - Residents of RUSSIAN MEDIA affectionately call the OSCE the Society of the blind. Actual OSCE reports show all.

[enterisys]

"the United States began pushing the Nazi government of Ukraine to create an atomic bomb"
For those I don't even have a link to reality, because they are just pure fabrication as far as I can tell. I don't even see anything relevant on Google.

Link for you - newest fear agenda.
https://rg.ru/2022/03/03/naryshkin-ukra ... uzhie.html

[MOP3E]

Jesus... it's scary to live in such an alternate reality.

Do you really think Wikipedia is right, the text in which anyone can correct? In polite society, this is considered bad form.

President of Ukraine Viktor Yanukovych was overthrown unconstitutionally. Therefore, what happened in Ukraine in 2014 is a coup d'etat.

Crimea was an autonomous republic within Ukraine. At the same time, the residents of Crimea never wanted to be part of Ukraine. In 1994, there was already a referendum in which the majority of the inhabitants of the peninsula voted for secession from Ukraine. After that, Ukraine, instead of allowing Crimea to self-determine, changed the constitution of Crimea so that it was impossible to secede from Ukraine legally.
On March 16, 2014, 82% of citizens voted in the Referendum on the status of Crimea, of which 97% voted for Crimea's accession to Russia.
In this way, they have realized their right to self-determination, one of the fundamental rights of peoples prescribed in the UN Charter.

Ukraine has abandoned the residents of Donbass, liquidating Ukrainian state and financial institutions in the territories of the People's Republics. Therefore, Russia was forced to help them.

[enterisys]

President of Ukraine Viktor Yanukovych was overthrown unconstitutionally. Therefore, what happened in Ukraine in 2014 is a coup d'etat.

He was not overthrown, he left country and because a country cannot live without its president a democratically elected government appointed temporary president who announced immediate reelections. These democratic reelections elected the legitimate president recognized also by Putin.

Crimea was an autonomous republic within Ukraine. At the same time, the residents of Crimea never wanted to be part of Ukraine. In 1994, there was already a referendum in which the majority of the inhabitants of the peninsula voted for secession from Ukraine. After that, Ukraine, instead of allowing Crimea to self-determine, changed the constitution of Crimea so that it was impossible to secede from Ukraine legally.
On March 16, 2014, 82% of citizens voted in the Referendum on the status of Crimea, of which 97% voted for Crimea's accession to Russia.
In this way, they have realized their right to self-determination, one of the fundamental rights of peoples prescribed in the UN Charter.

I am sure many things changed since 1994. Only one thing did not change - they were OK with Ukraine, untill russian army came to liberate them. It is hard to say no when your city is full of tanks.

Ukraine has abandoned the residents of Donbass, liquidating Ukrainian state and financial institutions in the territories of the People's Republics. Therefore, Russia was forced to help them.

Noone was abandoned - students were provided free education, old people were getting paid pensions by Ukraine and not russia.

[Wiwiweb]

That person will probably dismiss anything contradictory as "western media", even Wikipedia

Do you really think Wikipedia is right, the text in which anyone can correct? In polite society, this is considered bad form.

Right on time.

If anyone can edit it with no proof or sources, why not edit it with your own version of truth? Maybe even add all your .ru "sources"? Count how many seconds it stays on the page.

[MOP3E]

He was not overthrown, he left country and because a country cannot live without its president a democratically elected government appointed temporary president who announced immediate reelections. These democratic reelections elected the legitimate president recognized also by Putin.

Yanukovych was forced to flee to Russia fearing death at the hands of the Nazis.

I am sure many things changed since 1994. Only one thing did not change - they were OK with Ukraine, untill russian army came to liberate them. It is hard to say no when your city is full of tanks.

Indeed, until 2014, everything looked normal in Ukraine. But in 2014, a coup took place in Kiev, after which the Kiev Nazis decided to organize a massacre in the Crimea. For some reason, the Crimeans did not like it.

Noone was abandoned - students were provided free education, old people were getting paid pensions by Ukraine and not russia.

That's just for this they needed to get to Kiev.

[MOP3E]

If anyone can edit it with no proof or sources, why not edit it with your own version of truth? Maybe even add all your .ru "sources"? Count how many seconds it stays on the page.

And in the end, it will be the version that is edited the most actively. For example, using bots. And no one can guarantee that this version will reflect the real state of things.

[mmmPI]

Do you really think Wikipedia is right, the text in which anyone can correct? In polite society, this is considered bad form.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Russ ... of_Ukraine

Maybe it's not perfect but it's not as one sided as most media.

They do mention the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

Also the historic of who wrote the page and why is supposed to be public this way it is easier to identify wether it's "Typical European pretense" or not.

[MOP3E]

I have expressed here a real point of view on the events. Such as the residents of Crimea and Donbass see them. Built on the analysis of real people's messages on social networks and messengers. This is also my point of view, but I will not defend it here. And if there was an opportunity to return the Factorio game purchased in the incentive, I would definitely return it, and in principle I would only play the pirated version. Because the developers support the Nazis.

Goodbye.

[enterisys]

Yanukovych was forced to flee to Russia fearing death at the hands of the Nazis.

Unlikely you fear something when majority of Ukrainians supported you on your elections and you control police and army.

Indeed, until 2014, everything looked normal in Ukraine. But in 2014, a coup took place in Kiev, after which the Kiev Nazis decided to organize a massacre in the Crimea. For some reason, the Crimeans did not like it.

The same type of massacre that FSB organized to transfer power from Eltsin to Putin?

That's just for this they needed to get to Kiev.

No, just to nearest ATM. Its not our problems no bank including russian wanted to work near places where russian army was constantly shelling.

[Gergely]

The way I see it, both sides can choose to end the war. Both sides have the choice to resolve the situation peacefully. Russia obviously has the option to retreat. Or Ukraine can agree to fulfill Russia's demands. The following is my take on it, as a neutral observer.

Instead of siding with one nation, let us be on the side of peace and realize that both are to blame for the ongoing war and suffering. If you disagree that your side is to blame, well there are plenty of arguments from both sides that are just shifting the blame. We should be hoping that other nations do not enter the war (in the name of peace or justice or whatever) and escalate the situation into possibly a third world war.

@Devs if you publicly take a political side, you will in a way alienate at least a small portion of your community who oppose that view. This should have been the lesson from a bit less than a year ago when some few could not help associating you with certain political views, which was never your intention. I understand that people living in Ukraine are not exactly having a good time right now, but like I said both sides can choose to end the suffering as in a way both are causing it to the civilians by either action or inaction.

[Tertius]

If this will not be moderated at least you people will see how ordinary russian people and bots supporting them are brainwashed by fear instilled by Putin.

This has begun long before. Everyone who is able to use information from multiple independent sources across the world is able to get the big picture and immediately identify the lies from Russian government and their bots and trolls. Because of this, free press and free speech is suppressed in Russia, so nobody is allowed to tell what he read elsewhere about the war Russia started, so the common people have difficulties in seeing the lies and the truth.

The lies went so far that even the Russian soldiers that invaded Ukraine weren't told and didn't know what was going on, as far as I see corresponding news articles. They thought they were just on a maneuver, so they were totally surprised by the Ukrainian resistance after they crossed the border to Ukraine. Thus their high losses and slow progress. It's a sign that the Russian soldiers are just cannon fodder for their own government and not honored.

[tuhe]

Instead of siding with one nation, let us be on the side of peace and realize that both are to blame for the ongoing war and suffering.

I take it you don't buy the whole "Zelensky the Jewish crypto-nazi" circus, so your point is that because you believe the Ukranian government is responsible (in parts or whole?) for crimes in Donbas and other eastern territories in Ukraine, the current invasion with the intent of occupying and destroying the Ukranian government is a proportional response that both sides are now equally responsible for?

Can you elaborate on what the Ukranian government is responsible for that warrants this response? Because I completely agree that the Ukrainian government, and especially the militia in e.g. Donbas, are not perfect, but according to outside observers the main part of the abuse (by a huge margin!) in Donbas is perpetrated by Russians or Russian-backed separatists. This report is by the US government, but feel free to suggest the sources you rely on...

https://www.state.gov/wp-content/upload ... kraine.pdf

(update: and because my post could leave room for doubt: I personally view what Putin/Russia is doing right now as morally equivalent to Hitler/Germanys invasion of Poland. I am asking for an opposite point of view that is informed by what happens outside Putins propaganda because I simply cannot imagine what it is)

[snow-factory]

The way I see it, both sides can choose to end the war. Both sides have the choice to resolve the situation peacefully. Russia obviously has the option to retreat. Or Ukraine can agree to fulfill Russia's demands. The following is my take on it, as a neutral observer.

Let me again offer to you an example from the history. In 1938 the Czech Republic decided to peacefully give up to Hitler's Germany. This had not been an easy choice - Czechia had been a well-fortified country, surrounded by mountains giving defensive advantage, and with a military that would not have been without a chance of prevailing. But Czechia choose peace (also result of Munich agreement).

Result of the "peaceful solving of the situation by Czechs": World War 2.

Also, terror on Czech population from the Germans they peacefully surrendered to. And worse, Hitler's ultimate plan had been a genocide of all the Czech (and other Slavic) people in the region - see Generalplan Ost on wikipedia.

I hope you see that in this case the defending side's choice of "peace" almost had everyone in the nation killed. The defending side cannot really surrender because their security is not guaranteed in such case. While Russia's security if pulling back is guaranteed. So let's be more specific - both sides can theoretically resolve the situation peacefully. However, Russian side can do so without major risk to them. Ukrainian side can only do so risking of their very lives.

By the way, Hitler's pretext for the invasion had been that Czechs were a danger of bombarding the Germany (even after the years no such intention had been discovered) and alleged bad treatment of the German population at the boarder (not true, only after WW2).



Could you perhaps see at least any parallels with the current situation?

[enterisys]

The way I see it, both sides can choose to end the war. Both sides have the choice to resolve the situation peacefully. Russia obviously has the option to retreat. Or Ukraine can agree to fulfill Russia's demands. The following is my take on it, as a neutral observer.

Instead of siding with one nation, let us be on the side of peace and realize that both are to blame for the ongoing war and suffering. If you disagree that your side is to blame, well there are plenty of arguments from both sides that are just shifting the blame. We should be hoping that other nations do not enter the war (in the name of peace or justice or whatever) and escalate the situation into possibly a third world war.

@Devs if you publicly take a political side, you will in a way alienate at least a small portion of your community who oppose that view. This should have been the lesson from a bit less than a year ago when some few could not help associating you with certain political views, which was never your intention. I understand that people living in Ukraine are not exactly having a good time right now, but like I said both sides can choose to end the suffering as in a way both are causing it to the civilians by either action or inaction.

And how exactly you suggest Ukraine to end the war? Specifically peacefully?
How can you end a rape peacefully?

[jakeman27]

Having reflected on this today while driving, I think many of these arguments come down to kernels of truth that have been disproportionately presented. In some cases this distortion of reality will be for beneficial purposes such as propaganda and in others it is a case of only seeing a slice of the issue.

There are extreme right wing groups throughout Europe, this is a very unfortunate fact borne partly out of the freedom of speech that is enjoyed. Ukraine is no exception in this as referenced in the Azov Battalion, a group made up of people from Brazil, Italy, the United Kingdom, France, the United States, Greece, Scandinavia, Spain, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Ukraine and Russia.
The last source on size I can see estimates the strength as 2,500. The group itself estimates 10-20% of its members identify as neo-Nazi’s. They are active in the Donbas conflict.

Now on a Macro level this looks like a relatively small group, made up of many nationalities, of which a portion identify as neo-Nazi.

On a local level in Donbas for example I can imagine to those on the other side to them, it would seem that a large portion of their enemy is made up of people who identify as Nazi, are supported by multi nationals from Europe and beyond.

The reality of course is always somewhere in between.

The Nazi regime inflicted untold horror on the world 80 years ago and it will be a byword for evil for millennia to come. The Soviet Union suffered a sickening loss of human life and I think it is important to acknowledge this and how that can contribute to BOTH a genuine fear of the idea of any Nazi existence AND be used to stoke fear while supporting an untrue narrative.

NATO is a defensive pact, as a British citizen I wholeheartedly believe it always has been a defensive pact. I understand though for 50 years NATO sat as the enemy of the Soviet Union in their eyes. Anyone above 40 in Russia today will likely remember this.


So having said all this here are my conclusions
The citizens of Russia based on the information they are being given and have been given for decades could genuinely come to the conclusion that they are being attacked by Nazi’s and that NATO is an expanding threat. Let me be clear, I believe that is a completely false reality, it has no basis in fact. I believe a microcosm is being projected as a wide reality.

Secondly, genuine debate and dialogue is the best way forward. The risk in Russia right now seems to be that state information is seen as infallible as least by some. Information should be challenged, sourced and shared. Everyone needs to be open to learning new things, find some common ground and work out from there.

As a British citizen, We arguably in a historical context have the absolute least credibility to speak of invasion, over the last 900 years we have invaded more places than any other country. That being said the action taking place today in the sovereign country of Ukraine is wrong, it is not based on any known reality that justifies what is happening.

The existence of a small number of neo-Nazi’s is just that, an infinitesimally tiny quantity of people that are disproportionately represented in a region in conflict in the Donbas region to the people of Russia. They do not represent the people of Ukraine or Europe in general. They are not welcome here and never will be. But they do not represent the threat that the Russian people are being told they are.

There are undoubtedly a multitude of possible reasons for the military action being taken right now, oil and gas fields in Ukraine, perceived security threats, reliving past glory, reunion of former soviet states, a show of force to the world, the list goes on. NONE of it justifies what is actually happening.

Sorry for the ramble, this is situation I feel passionate about

[Gergely]

Could you perhaps see at least any parallels with the current situation?

Absolutely not. Should I?