We support Ukraine

[Overlord218]

UN security council

AFAIK UN security council tends to ignore some opinions and statements.

The Russian Army is some 1million strong

I don't know exact numbers (never interested in this topic to be fair), but i heard that there is around 100k Russian troops in Ukrain. (Not regular army, most part is contractors (people who get paid for military duty and some people from Kadyrov's personal forces (some sort of spec.ops.))

Facts and evidence are what is needed, if credible evidence is supplied then things will not be ignored and if they are then there are mechanisms for raising them further as is currently happening. Russia has never supplied this as far as I am aware so It can't be dismissed as being ignored.

There are around 200k Russian troops with approx 150k currently committed to the invasion

You do realise that OSCE is organisation and it consist from people. Therefore it can be biased. Observers from OSCE just ignore facts and evidence.

[enterisys]

And when Ukrainian military attack Russian people on Donetsk and Luhansk OSCE ignore it.

It wasnt. Go read actual reports. Both sides were breaking peace. A bit hipocritic claiming only UA broke it, isnt it?

Official doesn't mean practical. Sad truth is rules are sometimes broken.

As practical as making whole this thing up.

[jakeman27]

UN security council

AFAIK UN security council tends to ignore some opinions and statements.

The Russian Army is some 1million strong

I don't know exact numbers (never interested in this topic to be fair), but i heard that there is around 100k Russian troops in Ukrain. (Not regular army, most part is contractors (people who get paid for military duty and some people from Kadyrov's personal forces (some sort of spec.ops.))

Facts and evidence are what is needed, if credible evidence is supplied then things will not be ignored and if they are then there are mechanisms for raising them further as is currently happening. Russia has never supplied this as far as I am aware so It can't be dismissed as being ignored.

There are around 200k Russian troops with approx 150k currently committed to the invasion

You do realise that OSCE is organisation and it consist from people. Therefore it can be biased. Observers from OSCE just ignore facts and evidence.

You could replace OSCE in that statement with any organisation based on your logic. As stated in my first post, every news outlet will have some level of bias because as you say it consists of people.
I wonder what facts and evidence has been supplied to OSCE/UN etc If something has been overlooked then sure that's an issue but from what I can see claims have been made without anything to back them up.

[Overlord218]

And when Ukrainian military attack Russian people on Donetsk and Luhansk OSCE ignore it.

It wasnt. Go read actual reports. Both sides were breaking peace. A bit hipocritic claiming only UA broke it, isnt it?

Official doesn't mean practical. Sad truth is rules are sometimes broken.

As practical as making whole this thing up.

As practical as making whole this thing up.

Again, my bad. Not practical but in practice. (English isn't my first language so my vocabulary isn't the best)

Go read actual reports

Links? I will glady go and do my reseacrh.

[enterisys]

Links? I will glady go and do my reseacrh.

https://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/report ... sc&rows=10

[Overlord218]

Links? I will glady go and do my reseacrh.

https://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/report ... sc&rows=10

And? These report filled with ceasefire violations. Maybe it's not enough for OSCE to claim that somebody fired from Ukrain to Donetsk and Luhansk?

[enterisys]

And? These report filled with ceasefire violations. Maybe it's not enough for OSCE to claim that somebody fired from Ukrain to Donetsk and Luhansk?

And what is Putin source? RT lol?

[mmmPI]

But these bots are not free. They have a clear agenda full of the same lies for which russian official TVs were banned.

It doesn't matter if they have an agenda. That's the same if the bomb lobbyist says the war is a good thing and if the guy who sell concrete to rebuild the mess can also says the war is a good thing, with the same agenda. When you look at both side, consider you don't have the majority opinon and you are in one or the other. I don't think minorities right to express their thought or diversity of opinion is a bad thing. One day you think like everyone else and it doesn't matter to you, but you never know what will be the topic of division in the future, and you can suddenly happen to be that minority, maybe you are ok with silencing it for the greater good, maybe you wish to express your thought, maybe you don't have the choice. That's why i appreciate being able to read without filter. I think you don't fight lies with censorship, but with explanations, facts and so on.

banning the other guy media is a classic in history. that way you don't have to admit your own wrong and you an charge it 100%. That's the kind of thing that makes you the "bad" guy imo. The more you need to do it to avoid being critised internally, the worst i think.

[jakeman27]

Links? I will glady go and do my reseacrh.

https://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/report ... sc&rows=10

And? These report filled with ceasefire violations. Maybe it's not enough for OSCE to claim that somebody fired from Ukrain to Donetsk and Luhansk?

I would say on this, there is clearly a very detailed and long-standing observation mission ongoing in that region. If they found evidence of genocide or war atrocities then they would appear in these reports, no?
And if your argument is that these reports are wrong then where are the reports with what you believe to be happening in them?

[jakeman27]

But these bots are not free. They have a clear agenda full of the same lies for which russian official TVs were banned.

I think you don't fight lies with censorship, but with explanations, facts and so on.

This 100%

[Overlord218]

And? These report filled with ceasefire violations. Maybe it's not enough for OSCE to claim that somebody fired from Ukrain to Donetsk and Luhansk?

And what is Putin source? RT lol?

So instead answering my question you just flipped arrow. Nice move. Discussion with you over.
(These OSCE reports are proof that Ukrainian military fired on Luhansk and Donetsk territory FYI)

[Overlord218]

Links? I will glady go and do my reseacrh.

https://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/report ... sc&rows=10

And? These report filled with ceasefire violations. Maybe it's not enough for OSCE to claim that somebody fired from Ukrain to Donetsk and Luhansk?

I would say on this, there is clearly a very detailed and long-standing observation mission ongoing in that region. If they found evidence of genocide or war atrocities then they would appear in these reports, no?
And if your argument is that these reports are wrong then where are the reports with what you believe to be happening in them?

Ukrainian military broke Minsk agreements and fired at civilian people and OSCE just ignored it. Not enough violence for them i suppose.

[enterisys]

So instead answering my question you just flipped arrow. Nice move. Discussion with you over.
(These OSCE reports are proof that Ukrainian military fired on Luhansk and Donetsk territory FYI)

*Corrected*
These OSCE reports are proof that *both* military fired on *both* territory FYI

Now you can end the discussions.

[jakeman27]

Links? I will glady go and do my reseacrh.

https://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/report ... sc&rows=10

And? These report filled with ceasefire violations. Maybe it's not enough for OSCE to claim that somebody fired from Ukrain to Donetsk and Luhansk?

I would say on this, there is clearly a very detailed and long-standing observation mission ongoing in that region. If they found evidence of genocide or war atrocities then they would appear in these reports, no?
And if your argument is that these reports are wrong then where are the reports with what you believe to be happening in them?

Ukrainian military broke Minsk agreements and fired at civilian people and OSCE just ignored it. Not enough violence for them i suppose.

Those reports show violations of both sides, nobody is denying that.

Can you provide a source for that claim? Dates times locations etc, clearly OSCE has detailed reporting so we could cross-reference?

If you can and the OSCE report omits it then that's one question.
If you can and the OSCE has the same information but it was never acted on then that's another question
If you can't then you have made a baseless claim, or at least repeated one you believe to be true

[Overlord218]

https://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/report ... sc&rows=10

And? These report filled with ceasefire violations. Maybe it's not enough for OSCE to claim that somebody fired from Ukrain to Donetsk and Luhansk?

I would say on this, there is clearly a very detailed and long-standing observation mission ongoing in that region. If they found evidence of genocide or war atrocities then they would appear in these reports, no?
And if your argument is that these reports are wrong then where are the reports with what you believe to be happening in them?

Ukrainian military broke Minsk agreements and fired at civilian people and OSCE just ignored it. Not enough violence for them i suppose.

Those reports show violations of both sides, nobody is denying that.

Can you provide a source for that claim? Dates times locations etc, clearly OSCE has detailed reporting so we could cross-reference?

If you can and the OSCE report omits it then that's one question.
If you can and the OSCE has the same information but it was never acted on then that's another question
If you can't then you have made a baseless claim, or at least repeated one you believe to be true

If you can and the OSCE has the same information but it was never acted on then that's another question

This. If violations did happened why they never acted on them? (Like Try to use OSCE forces to stop conflict)

[Koub]

[Koub] Moderator-me writing
@Devs : The choice is yours to open such a polemic topic on this forum : it's your forum .
But don't expect me to do any moderation on it, because I'm not qualified to tell apart the propaganda, the trolling, the truth, the fake news, ... on such subjects.

However, I'll be locking every single other thread opened on the subject and link them to this thread. At least that should keep the rest of the forum clean.

[mmmPI]

Ukrainian military broke Minsk agreements and fired at civilian people and OSCE just ignored it. Not enough violence for them i suppose.

From what i've read on official channel, the president of Ukraine do not deny that all points of Minsk agreements are not respected. Some points concern changing the Ukraine constitution to then allow some autonomy to Donestk and Louhansk are difficult to apply due to strong anti and pro position inside Ukraine and in the Eastern oblast. There are saddening reports of civilians casualties on both sides everytime.

Then attacking militarily Kiev and Kharkiv city is still an escalation and makes it even harder or impossible for the Ukraine president to achieve the autonomy and respect his part of the deal against the "anti" in his rank. How can he now give autonomy without the country turning against him and putting someone else ? That's what is supposed to happen in democracy when people can vote and change the leader if he disappoint.

[jakeman27]

And? These report filled with ceasefire violations. Maybe it's not enough for OSCE to claim that somebody fired from Ukrain to Donetsk and Luhansk?

I would say on this, there is clearly a very detailed and long-standing observation mission ongoing in that region. If they found evidence of genocide or war atrocities then they would appear in these reports, no?
And if your argument is that these reports are wrong then where are the reports with what you believe to be happening in them?

Ukrainian military broke Minsk agreements and fired at civilian people and OSCE just ignored it. Not enough violence for them i suppose.

Those reports show violations of both sides, nobody is denying that.

Can you provide a source for that claim? Dates times locations etc, clearly OSCE has detailed reporting so we could cross-reference?

If you can and the OSCE report omits it then that's one question.
If you can and the OSCE has the same information but it was never acted on then that's another question
If you can't then you have made a baseless claim, or at least repeated one you believe to be true

If you can and the OSCE has the same information but it was never acted on then that's another question

This. If violations did happened why they never acted on them? (Like Try to use OSCE forces to stop conflict)

Exactly but for your argument to have any weight you need to provide some evidence these things happened. I am agreeing that if an atrocity has occurred and the international bodies in place to prevent them have not then that needs to be looked into.

You haven't provided any evidence of this happening

In any case, there is no evidence currently being provided that could possibly support the current actions being taken in Ukraine

[exlevan]

As a Ukrainian born in Donbass, I can say with authority: the "Putin had no other choice" narrative stands no ground. If Putin wanted to finish the Donbass conflict and achieve peace, all he had to do is pull his troops from Donbass and stop supporting the local gangs that took power there. They would stand no chance 1-on-1 against the Ukrainian army, and would flee to Russia. The all-in invasion is completely Putin's choice that is in no way justified by his care for Donbass people. It was his fault for all deaths in Donbass conflict happened in last 8 years, and it's his fault for what is happening now. The genocide claims are laughable, and he has no justification for this invasion. All the war apologist in this thread make me sick, I hope you'll never get to experience the horrors of war that we do now.

[jakeman27]

@exlevan I hope you and any friends and family in Ukraine are safe