Thank you. Saves are lurking in the attachments, check it, its there just hard to find.
UPS optimized 12-beacon smelting - w/minimal circuits
Re: UPS optimized 12-beacon smelting - w/minimal circuits
I think we're at the limits of measurements, yes, even w/500 lanes. But thinking about a whatever spm megabase, I'd expect only some parts timed and things smooth out. Also output belts are never 100% used, so idle will happen probably causing more changes in UPS than timed stuff?
Unless something big comes up here, I'm done w/smelting... Steel/GC comes!
I like this idea. The 2nd mini-gap is disappearng on a straigtht part. Maybe undeground belts has some dirty secret also, or folks at Wube did some magic when they optimized the belts or ensured full belts work consistently. I've read some FFFs, well, loads of effort went into this. As I consume the belt 100% using editor extension there is no way that plates are slipping there.
Let this be the biggest "bug" in Factorio!
Re: UPS optimized 12-beacon smelting - w/minimal circuits
thanks for the recap ! i tunneled vision on the graph which is showing the not so big UPS boost in the signal transmission in this particular case. When i look at the graph the entity (yellow part) is too complicated/chaotic to dinstinguish a clear pattern. that's where the biggest UPS boost lies. But looking at the orange part it seems that the spike are roughly similar in height and frequency between the signal compression and non-compressed signal. What changes would be the "noise" the average level of orange in-between the spikes. ( that's one way to describe) At the end the result is a clear UPS gain in the circuit network part from 0.51 to 0.31 when looking at it applied to Belter's deisgn. That's almost a 40% gain considering only the circuit parts !
To me it makes sense that the orange spike is the same height, the circuit network requires the same amount of time in both case when the inserter is activated. With that the reduction of orange in the other part would seem to confirm that when no value changes in the circuit it takes less time for the circuit network to be processed by the game. Or in other word, that entities connected to the circuit network are smart enough to not consume time machine when the circuit is not changing value. Or again, than if one can avoid having value changing all the time on the circuit network for no particular reason, it's best/ good practice to avoid it because it has an inpact on every entity connected to it. If you have somewhere 100000 inserter waiting for the "iron" signal, you don't want to connect them to the same circuit network where you read content on a full belt with the "pulse" signal or to the mega mall full of connected chest with their content changing every tick. This is the lesson i'm going to remember from the graph and your different tests
.You can set up your factory so that output belts are 100% used depending on how you setup your train conditionsBelter wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 10:35 pm I think we're at the limits of measurements, yes, even w/500 lanes. But thinking about a whatever spm megabase, I'd expect only some parts timed and things smooth out. Also output belts are never 100% used, so idle will happen probably causing more changes in UPS than timed stuff?
but it's pretty uncommon to design this way on purpose. Another way it happens is when you don't have enough material coming, not a shortage of 1 material in particular, but things like you can produce 100 SPM but only have enough material input for 90 due to a train congestion. It's not like 1 particular material will stockpile and then the congestion will be better, it can alternate between different material arriving too late maybe 1 will stockpile like 10 or 20% of the buffer at most when 2 train arrive in quick succession, and then all empty when no train of that material arrive to make up for the previous. The thing is happening more often unwillingly it's easier to spot when it arrives than to describe the conditions for it x).I see it as the test is only 1 part of making the megabase, then you have to properly implement the good design recognized in the test so that it behave in the factory like it does in the test !
The signal network compression is not reducing the height of 1 particular spike of time machine consumed for the circuit network processing, it is reducing the noise in between the spikes. Thus if you implement a gigantic array with signal compression you may want to offset the spikes from one another. Otherwise you may risk having those particular frame where all the logic is happening becoming notceable in game. but that would require several clocks
Given the very low % of time required by the circuit network in the smelting setup in general the risk doesn't seem that high here. But those orange spike are roughly correlated with yellows spikes too, since when the inserter is active it triggers some other calculations. There are obvisouly other more important parameter than just the circuit network that result in the total time per frame looking chaotic but if you reduce all noise and synchronize everything the raw UPS gain may be happening in a visible manner at the detriment of a regularity in the the time machine required per each frame. Not the limit of measurement !
I agree they do mysterious things
Re: UPS optimized 12-beacon smelting - w/minimal circuits
Actually I did not know why the circuits are in sync... and they are, obviously. I use 5 circuits for my 500 lane tests for the 5x100 blocks.
To test I deynced one by replacing it again the combinators using copy & paste:
First idea was power cut / save/load game but the state remained (well, makes sense). So Region Cloner keeps that even in sync, nice job!
It means that in normal cicumstances, working from BPs - unless a global timer is used - they won't be in sync.
Edit: in the documentation at github they do mention this feature. RTFM...
To test I deynced one by replacing it again the combinators using copy & paste:
- Desync.png (49.51 KiB) Viewed 5688 times
First idea was power cut / save/load game but the state remained (well, makes sense). So Region Cloner keeps that even in sync, nice job!
It means that in normal cicumstances, working from BPs - unless a global timer is used - they won't be in sync.
Edit: in the documentation at github they do mention this feature. RTFM...
- Attachments
-
- biron51_belter-iron-V6.75-desync.zip
- (5.09 MiB) Downloaded 126 times
Re: UPS optimized 12-beacon smelting - w/minimal circuits
This BP has space for substations, which is almost never the case for high beacon setups.
I'm sure I'll be slaughtered but... ..I added substatoins and measured the difference.
9000 poles vs 2000 substations.+0.8% UPS. Result is consistent at least for me.
No idea why entity updates went up.
I'm sure I'll be slaughtered but... ..I added substatoins and measured the difference.
9000 poles vs 2000 substations.+0.8% UPS. Result is consistent at least for me.
No idea why entity updates went up.
- poles-subtations.gif (4.79 MiB) Viewed 5653 times
- Pole-vs-Sub.png (63.36 KiB) Viewed 5653 times
- Attachments
-
- biron5ps results.csv
- (768 Bytes) Downloaded 149 times
-
- biron5ps-Belter-v6.75s.zip
- (4.48 MiB) Downloaded 155 times
-
- biron5ps-Belter-v6.75p.zip
- (5.47 MiB) Downloaded 164 times
-
Gummiente27
- Long Handed Inserter
- Posts: 64
- Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:59 am
- Contact:
Re: UPS optimized 12-beacon smelting - w/minimal circuits
7000 less things to progress
Re: UPS optimized 12-beacon smelting - w/minimal circuits
I recreated your test, with the following modifications:
(500 belts, 100 down, 5 columns)
- removed circuit controllers except one in the left top (I would only use one in a real game)
- made sure all furnaces are filled to capacity (in your saves, some furnaces are still filling up, so the input inserters are more active)
- added DaveMcW's save for reference
- removed the rewire mod (it makes comparison with older tests difficult)
- 50000 ticks, 3 runs
Looks like substations are the better solution, marginally:)
(500 belts, 100 down, 5 columns)
- removed circuit controllers except one in the left top (I would only use one in a real game)
- made sure all furnaces are filled to capacity (in your saves, some furnaces are still filling up, so the input inserters are more active)
- added DaveMcW's save for reference
- removed the rewire mod (it makes comparison with older tests difficult)
- 50000 ticks, 3 runs
Looks like substations are the better solution, marginally:)
- 2022-02-08 12_54_22-Window.png (39.74 KiB) Viewed 5626 times
- Attachments
-
- bm_ smelting results.csv
- (1.08 KiB) Downloaded 132 times
-
- raw logs.zip
- (8.92 MiB) Downloaded 118 times
-
- bm_iron-DaveMcW-V2.zip
- (3.32 MiB) Downloaded 114 times
-
- bm_iron-belter-v6.75sV2.zip
- (4.64 MiB) Downloaded 118 times
-
- bm_iron-belter-v6.75pV2.zip
- (4.99 MiB) Downloaded 88 times
Re: UPS optimized 12-beacon smelting - w/minimal circuits
I really appreciate this, thank you! Your points are all valid and I will pay more attention for those in the future.
Per the Avg UPS numbers Dave's BP is 1% faster than the pole version. The substation is +2% on top of that giving a 3% difference (+2% to Dave's).
Re: UPS optimized 12-beacon smelting - w/minimal circuits
Mind the gap - the challenge!
There is a clear explanation why the mini-gaps appearing. Can you find it out?I give hints - the last one is the solution. If you liked this challenge reply here your hint level 0..4.
So:
- top row has mini gaps
- bottom row has no mini gaps
Why is that?
- MindTheGap.png (858.13 KiB) Viewed 5580 times
Hint 1
Hint 2
Hint 3
Hint 4
Last edited by Belter on Wed Feb 09, 2022 7:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: UPS optimized 12-beacon smelting - w/minimal circuits
You have discovered the difference between a 0-to-143 clock and a 1-to-144 clock.
If you want the 0 signal to last 32 ticks, you need to use the 0-to-143 version.
If you want the 0 signal to last 32 ticks, you need to use the 0-to-143 version.
Re: UPS optimized 12-beacon smelting - w/minimal circuits
Belter v6.78p
- After fixing the timer I've re-organized my BP - signal compression is from DaveMcW- Finally beats DaveMcW v2 - +3.71% UPS. Not much, but consistent
- No further ideas to improve UPS. Time to move to steel finally?
- BelterSC v6.78p.png (547.19 KiB) Viewed 5413 times
Belter v6.78smin
- I thought that using substations would improve even further the UPS. Wrong. Not sure why but slower.- BelterSC v6.78smin.png (427.06 KiB) Viewed 5413 times
DaveMcW v2
- Using the BP as posted here- DaveMcW v2.png (295.27 KiB) Viewed 5410 times
Benchmark results
- Did a 3 x 50.000 tick measurement w/5x100 lanes.- Double-checked to have all 3 saves with full smelters. Saves also attached
- Results.csv does not have header as I deleted the file with other results after started the benchmark, data is intact
- Avg UPS: avg UPS of the 3 runs. Min/Max: the slowest/fastest UPS of the 3 runs
- See this post for more pole setup results
- Attachments
-
- UPS.png (50.85 KiB) Viewed 5413 times
-
- Times.png (50.11 KiB) Viewed 5413 times
-
- b_smeltwiret_DaveMcWv2.zip
- (5.48 MiB) Downloaded 238 times
-
- b_smeltwiret_4_Belter-p.zip
- (5.1 MiB) Downloaded 235 times
-
- b_smeltwiret_1_Belter-smin.zip
- (6.52 MiB) Downloaded 225 times
-
- b_smeltwiret results.csv
- (1.05 KiB) Downloaded 236 times
Re: UPS optimized 12-beacon smelting - w/minimal circuits
Davemcw with substation will beat yours:)
- 2022-02-15 11_51_59-Window.png (124.89 KiB) Viewed 5379 times
- Attachments
-
- bm_iron-belter-v6.75s.zip
- (2.73 MiB) Downloaded 138 times
-
- bm_iron-DaveMcWs.zip
- (1.25 MiB) Downloaded 126 times
-
- bm_ smelting results.csv
- (4.8 KiB) Downloaded 130 times
Re: UPS optimized 12-beacon smelting - w/minimal circuits
Use v6.78 pls, not 6.75
Substation v6.78s is here: viewtopic.php?f=193&t=101598&p=561689#p561689 with saves.
Re: UPS optimized 12-beacon smelting - w/minimal circuits
i did use your latest saves, and posted results there.
[edit] oops.
Here: viewtopic.php?p=561734#p561734
[edit] oops.
Here: viewtopic.php?p=561734#p561734
Last edited by disentius on Wed Feb 16, 2022 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: UPS optimized 12-beacon smelting - w/minimal circuits
I found a perfect alignment for the middle inserter that save a few ticks.
I also optimized the clock by removing one active circuit network.
I also optimized the clock by removing one active circuit network.
Re: UPS optimized 12-beacon smelting - w/minimal circuits
I ran a benchmark with v3(my modified davemcw with substations vs) v4 (Dave's latest entry).
Base blueprints:
v3
v4
Results:
Base blueprints:
v3
- ironv3.png (555.33 KiB) Viewed 5249 times
- ironv4.png (735.47 KiB) Viewed 5249 times
- 2022-02-16 14_16_13-bm_ smelting results.csv - LibreOffice Calc.png (81.72 KiB) Viewed 5249 times
- Attachments
-
- bm_ smelting results.csv
- (2.55 KiB) Downloaded 95 times
-
- logfiles.zip
- (16.1 MiB) Downloaded 86 times
-
- empty.zip
- (397.35 KiB) Downloaded 86 times
-
- bm_iron-DaveMcW-v4.zip
- (1.15 MiB) Downloaded 83 times
-
- bm_iron-DaveMcW-v3.zip
- (1.17 MiB) Downloaded 79 times
Re: UPS optimized 12-beacon smelting - w/minimal circuits
(Made new saves for both)
Re: UPS optimized 12-beacon smelting - w/minimal circuits
Did the same test with both saves expanded to 500 belts, per remarks of Dave about RAM.
Results:
Can someone repeat the test? also, why is V3 faster?
Results:
- 2022-02-16 16_27_38-bm_ smelting results500 belts.csv - LibreOffice Calc.png (81.21 KiB) Viewed 5233 times
- Attachments
-
- bm_ smelting results500 belts.csv
- (2.68 KiB) Downloaded 171 times
-
- bm_iron-DaveMcW-v3 500.zip
- (3.25 MiB) Downloaded 158 times
-
- bm_iron-DaveMcW-v4 500.zip
- (3.09 MiB) Downloaded 154 times
-
- logfiles 500 belts.zip
- (19.33 MiB) Downloaded 91 times
Re: UPS optimized 12-beacon smelting - w/minimal circuits
Belter,
why is a full belt used to feed ore?
it should be much better this way
why is a full belt used to feed ore?
it should be much better this way
- Attachments
-
- UPS optimized 12-beacon smelting - wminimal circuits.png (549.54 KiB) Viewed 5177 times
Re: UPS optimized 12-beacon smelting - w/minimal circuits
Tested Flame's config.
As POC I made a DaveMcW v5 and tested it against v4(Dave's latest entry and v3(substations). it was a bit of a puzzle, and I had to abandon using Substations as in v3.
- all saves have run at least 10 minutes , or as long as it takes to fill the furnaces to 100 plates.
- 100 belts production
Results:
Seems like it is slightly better. v5 has more belts, and 100 more infinity loaders, and is still slightly faster.
As POC I made a DaveMcW v5 and tested it against v4(Dave's latest entry and v3(substations). it was a bit of a puzzle, and I had to abandon using Substations as in v3.
- all saves have run at least 10 minutes , or as long as it takes to fill the furnaces to 100 plates.
- 100 belts production
Results:
Seems like it is slightly better. v5 has more belts, and 100 more infinity loaders, and is still slightly faster.
- 2022-02-18 15_02_18-Window.png (108.02 KiB) Viewed 5143 times
- Attachments
-
- bm_iron-DaveMcW-v4 100.zip
- (1.15 MiB) Downloaded 85 times
-
- bm_iron-DaveMcW-v3 100.zip
- (1.17 MiB) Downloaded 86 times
-
- bm_iron-DaveMcW-v5 100.zip
- (1.35 MiB) Downloaded 96 times
-
- bm_ smelting results 100 belts.csv
- (3.86 KiB) Downloaded 103 times
-
- logfiles 100 belts2.zip
- (24.28 MiB) Downloaded 71 times