then it's partly allowed partly not ?
that's not nit-pick, i want to win the contest but the rules are very imprecise to the point where i'm not sure they make sense.
Cool. With unlimited trains, we can use underground pipes to cross the tracks and make an infintely tilable design. Direct loading from heat exchangers is silly.
I don't think that is the case, in fact I think that, unless the flow of steam between the stations is faster than the flow into the first train, then the first train will necessarily also need to leave at some point. With the only benefit being that you effectivily only have a single train worth of switching time for k number of filled trains.
Do use a fluid wagon as tank all I care. If you can make that work with going heat exchanger -> pump -> fluid wagon I aplaud you.
What did you mean ?
so we are allowed to waste fuel if it is to get more steam ?
You can place the reactor between two rail tracks. Heat pipes in the middle, one heat exchanger going up, one going down. Maximum you can do if not using end stops.
the question was is it allowed or not ?
that means the answer is yes for wasting fuel ?
Only if you manage not to overheat it constantly. If you can come up with an infinite reactor design all the better for you. I can already two such designs in my head:mmmPI wrote: ↑Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:04 pmthat means the answer is yes for wasting fuel ?
because if not that means infinite reactor is mandadory.
but if yes, then train are infinite ?
i mean it's ok to change the rule in the middle of the contest, that's something that can happens when the rule where not really well planned in the first place, like the infinity pipe were not allowed at first but then you changed your mind because it didn't make sense to not allow them while landfilling a lake except 2 tiles for a pump and landfilling after was allowed.
But this rule if you change it one way or the other, (imo) it doesn't make sense to call the contest "the longest" since the only design that could qualify will be infinite.
again maybe i'm not understanding well the contest, the example didn't really help me and the rules still don't make sense maybe i'm missing something.
Also maybe you could explain for the point system ( those that would be dedacted) it would be fair to know beforehand, otherwise how can one design something toward an objective if the scoring method is kept secret ?
well that's why i'm also asking for how you will evaluate the design, maybe you will decide after you see them, which is a bit special for a contest, ( it could be very much arbitrary),
I would interpret that exactly for what it is, like I predicted you would do: Trying to get a specific wording for the rule so you can break it without breaking the letters of the rule.
Well because the title of the contest is "nanana LONGEST TRAIN nanana", but then you say an infinite number of small train wins overs an infinitly long train. why ? that doesn't make sense, the aim is to make the longest train right ?
i'm not sure to undersand why you say i'm trying to get a specific wording for the rule so i can break it. That's not the case, i'm trying to get a specific wording for the rule because i think at the moment it's not specific, it's inconsistent, irrationnal and unpredictible and therefore it makes it impossible to understand how you will evaluate designs, which makes it impossible for me to choose the design amongst my numerous attempts that would best qualify according to the interpretation of the unprecise rules you seem to establish as time goes.
Lets measure at the delivery site where steam is used. Your infinite train never arrives. That's my point. It doesn't matter how long the train is if it never arrives. The delivered steam is 0. The arriving train has how many fluid wagons? Well, it never arrives to be counted.
The length of the train is still my main concern but steam throughput is important too. Because otherwise you will make a really really long train that takes a million years to fill and claim it's the longest. If I can make the train half the size and have it deliver 4 times the steam then I take that as a win. I didn't say the length of the train gets ignored and only steam/s counts too.mmmPI wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:57 am the amount of steam/second is not the unit in which train lengh are measured in case you didn't know. If the aim is to make the longest train, you do not measure the train by the amount of time it takes to fill it up, or the amount of things it can carry, instead train lengh is measured in wagon/locomotive or distance.
Therefore, even if they are faster individually, infinite amount of small train is not the same as the longest train because longest train means you cannot just count the lengh of one train, and addition the lengh of another train, it is 2 different train, not a longer train. Your method of calcul seems hazardous, irrationnal, undefined, arbitrary.
otherwise any design that's infinitly tilebale with an infinite amout of train has infinite steam/S, so again how do you pick the winner between the different design ? who will be the longest train between infinite amount of 1 wagon train, and infinite amount of 1 wagon train ?
Why don't just post one of your designs or all of them and see what I say? So far all your posts have been about circumventing rules and every time I tell you how I would judge or why it breaks the rules set out in the first post you refine it to a more elaborate circumvention to get around the latest explanation. Go back and read the first post. The rules have not changed.mmmPI wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:57 ami'm not sure to undersand why you say i'm trying to get a specific wording for the rule so i can break it. That's not the case, i'm trying to get a specific wording for the rule because i think at the moment it's not specific, it's inconsistent, irrationnal and unpredictible and therefore it makes it impossible to understand how you will evaluate designs, which makes it impossible for me to choose the design amongst my numerous attempts that would best qualify according to the interpretation of the unprecise rules you seem to establish as time goes.
If the rules were making sense they wouldn't need to be changed, you think it's me trying to get a wording for my personnal preference but really i feel it's because you didn't thought about the contest all that much, you made rules that don't make sense, like at the same time considering Steam/S and/or size of the train depending on reasons that are arbitrary, i'm just trying to help you make something more consistent. Especially if you predicted that the rules were to be scrutinized, questionned, or whatever, you could have make them so they wouldn't cause interpretation problem due to their imprecisions and lack of focus/ coherence.
It's never explained which design will win between a 1 wagon train design at 2 steam/sec overall , or a 2 wagon train design at 1 steam/sec overall. the one with the longest train or the one with more steam/s ? the name of the contest imply different answer than you explication, which makes it even more confusing.
Otherwise, any design with an infinite amount of parralel train could have infinite amount of S/second, and any design with the longest train, would have infinite train.
so which would be the longest between the 2 according to your rules ? the infinitly long train ? or the infinite amount of tiny train that carry more steam/s if you can't wait unfinite amount of time to measure the result ?
So the lengh of the train is the main concern, but the steam/s is the deciding factor in case a long train has less than a short train then the long train is to be divided by an arbitrary number to allow the comparaison of steam/s/wagon ?mrvn wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:52 pm The length of the train is still my main concern but steam throughput is important too.
As said numerous times now the 2 wagon train design at 1 steam/s would be eliminated by being able to halve the train length and still fill the train at 1 steam/s.
It would count at the reduced train length
mrvn wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:52 pm How often did I mention now that an infinite train has 0 steam/s, never manages to leave the reactor, never arrives to deliver steam? How many ways do I have to say how I count an infinite train? You are beating a dead horse. It started with with an infinite amount of locomotives to fake a longer train. That one was actually still workable because of your switching idea where the train only needs to move by the amount of fluid wagons. But since I would obviously count fluid wagons and not locomotives in the comparison you abandont that.
Well i understand steam/s is the deciding factor when train have the same lengh, but you also just explained that a 2wagon 1/S second would be judged like if it was a 1 wagon0.5 steam/second, because it's considered an artificially elongated train otherwise it would beat a 1wagon 1/S train and it makes no sense.mrvn wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:52 pm You also seem to be fixated at only looking at the overall steam/s now. Look at the rules again. It's a deciding factor. When you can't decide between two designs because they have the same length trains then the steam/s decieds. Maybe it isn't clear from that but it's mend to be steam/s for each train, not total. It's better to fill the train faster.
There is only one modification to the rules that I should make: That a tileable design is judged on density so the infinite factor get removed from the equation there.
)No. That division is just correcting when you cheat. You are breaking the "how short a train can you fuel without the reactor overheating when burning fuel without pause?" part of the rules.mmmPI wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:20 pmSo the lengh of the train is the main concern, but the steam/s is the deciding factor in case a long train has less than a short train then the long train is to be divided by an arbitrary number to allow the comparaison of steam/s/wagon ?mrvn wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:52 pm The length of the train is still my main concern but steam throughput is important too.
As said numerous times now the 2 wagon train design at 1 steam/s would be eliminated by being able to halve the train length and still fill the train at 1 steam/s.
It would count at the reduced train length
Neither the distance or the max speed matters as that would just offsets the time when the first steam arrives. If you assume there are enough trains and you load a train every 10 seconds then a train will arrive every 10 seconds no matter the distance of max speed.mmmPI wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:20 pm You can probably see where i'm going now, If the delivery point is very far away say 1000000 km, then the acceleration of the train matters less than its max speed. While if the delivery point is very close, then the max speed doesn't matter as much as acceleration.
You just switch from measuring the steam flow loaded onto a train to the steam flow delivered at another location situated at unknown distance. that's a pretty big change !!!
How do you expect me to post a design that's optimised enough to have a chance to win the contest if i can't compare how good my different design score between each others giving the distance during the official measurment ?
What I wrote was it would be like 1 wagon with 1 steam/s. Same steam output, shorter train. And you've got it the wrong way around. If it is artificially elongated then I would cut it down for the count. Or maybe just not bother to judge it at all. To get 2 wagons to fill at 1 steam/s you have to split the output from a heat exchanger 200 ways. Which you can't with the heat exchanger -> pump -> fluid wagon rule anyway. Or keep it really cool by having a extremely long heat pipe that just barely reaches 501°C at the heat exchanger. So I guess it doesn't have to break any rules, it could also just be stupid.mmmPI wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:20 pmWell i understand steam/s is the deciding factor when train have the same lengh, but you also just explained that a 2wagon 1/S second would be judged like if it was a 1 wagon0.5 steam/second, because it's considered an artificially elongated train otherwise it would beat a 1wagon 1/S train and it makes no sense.mrvn wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:52 pm You also seem to be fixated at only looking at the overall steam/s now. Look at the rules again. It's a deciding factor. When you can't decide between two designs because they have the same length trains then the steam/s decieds. Maybe it isn't clear from that but it's mend to be steam/s for each train, not total. It's better to fill the train faster.
There is only one modification to the rules that I should make: That a tileable design is judged on density so the infinite factor get removed from the equation there.
So really the term you should use is steam/s/wagon not per train, if i may give a piece of advice, it would make it easier to understand no ?
Steam/s/wagon, DELIVERED, at a point, but then again, the distance and the method of delivery/measure is important.
I modified the infinity pipe between heat exhcnagers rule because it's equivalent to having an offshore pipe there. Or a better wording would be: You can place an infinity pipe anywhere an offshore pump would fit. Having to waterfill and landfill tiles any time you try something different is a pain. The infinity pipe is just for your convenience.mmmPI wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:20 pm
A slow train would make less trip than a fast train in a certain amount of time, and therefore would give less steam/s, considering equal amount of wagon, but different number of locomotives.
You already modified the infinity pipe rule, you said water you come by train at first, then you said wasted fuel was inevitable and didn't really clarify how it would be bad, or worse, just that it shouldn't "overheat constantly", which is quite changing the perspective but is still vaguely defined imo.
Now you added a delivery point where things will be measured and tried to defined how infinite design would be judged.
but you didn't mention the distance at which is located that delivery point !!!
You think i will post one of my design now that the rules have changed ? you fool ! i will keep them secret until i'm sure i understand the rules. ( and also how you plan to evaluate the different designs but we're not there yet first let's make sure the rules are clear
oh i see it's breaking the rule that is not written explicitly, it's considered cheating but i couldn't tell beforehand because the rules are not clear, when do you divise train lengh? saying "when i cheat" is just a way to avoid the question. "When is it considered cheating ?" if you prefer.
So where do you measure then ? ( let say for you it doesn't matter, but for my design it's important what can i do ?).mrvn wrote: ↑Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:57 am Neither the distance or the max speed matters as that would just offsets the time when the first steam arrives. If you assume there are enough trains and you load a train every 10 seconds then a train will arrive every 10 seconds no matter the distance of max speed.
And I'm not measuring at the delivery site, that was just an attempt to get you to see that the infinite train is a non-go. I can describe it another way: The infinite train will never leave the reactor and a second train can never stop at the reactor. It will only ever fill one train and then the reactor is dead weight.
Or this way: You can't build an infinite train, the map isn't infinite. You don't have enough ram for it. It doesn't fit into a blueprint string or savegame. There are so many way that an infinite train is impossible I didn't put it in the rules. But I guess just for you I will have to.
that's exctly what i said, you will divide the long train to judge them as smaller train that where elongated. This means the metric is steam/s/wagon. not steam/s/train, because in this case you divide the long train per their number of wagon. You can say " use whichever you like better", but that doesn't make sense, it's not me who judge the design, you just explained that infinite train take infinite time to load, which is wrong, maybe you will also use other wrong reasonning to judge a design as "artificially elongated and thus needing to be divided so we can measure steam/S/wagon." That's why i'd like to know precisely beforehand.mrvn wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:52 pm What I wrote was it would be like 1 wagon with 1 steam/s. Same steam output, shorter train. And you've got it the wrong way around. If it is artificially elongated then I would cut it down for the count. Or maybe just not bother to judge it at all. To get 2 wagons to fill at 1 steam/s you have to split the output from a heat exchanger 200 ways. Which you can't with the heat exchanger -> pump -> fluid wagon rule anyway. Or keep it really cool by having a extremely long heat pipe that just barely reaches 501°C at the heat exchanger. So I guess it doesn't have to break any rules, it could also just be stupid.
Steam/s/wagon and steam/s/train for trains with the same number of wagons doesn't change anything. The comparison will be the same. Use whichever you like better.
yes some rules needed be modified because they clearly had HUGE loopholes/faulty logic. like not allowing infinitypipe, but allowing waterhole+offshore pump was stupid ( that's where i use this word), since it's the same thing at the end taking up same space on blueprint, just more annoying to do. ( also that's why other contest propose a map, so that the water area is definite and finite maybe you could get some inspiration there.)mrvn wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:52 pm I modified the infinity pipe between heat exhcnagers rule because it's equivalent to having an offshore pipe there. Or a better wording would be: You can place an infinity pipe anywhere an offshore pump would fit. Having to waterfill and landfill tiles any time you try something different is a pain. The infinity pipe is just for your convenience.
It's pretty clear to me that you don't intend to post any sensible reactor anyway and by now you've scared away everybody else. Job well done.
