Can we please make constructions bots avoid fire?

[mrvn]

Why should bots be immune to damage when no other factory thing is immune to damage? What is so special about bots that, outside of a mod, they should be impervious to biter and spitter attacks?

It's simple enough to use an invincible-bots mod.

It's simple enough to turn the aliens off completely, or set them in peaceful mode, if desired.

If burning bots is the problem, there are plenty of other defensive options without using flamethrowers and flamethrower turrets.

It doesn't make sense to change the game for this.

I'm not using flame throwers. The aliens are. There are mods that change the kind of damage the spiters do to fire.

[Koub]

Why should bots be immune to damage when no other factory thing is immune to damage? What is so special about bots that, outside of a mod, they should be impervious to biter and spitter attacks?

Why not ? Bots are already unique in some ways (I don't think there are many other entities without collision boxes). It's not a valid reason to refuse a change.

It's simple enough to use an invincible-bots mod.

The fact that something is moddable doesn't forbid it to be added to vanilla, if it would make vanilla a better experience. The devs have already added ingame things that were only mods at the beginning.

It's simple enough to turn the aliens off completely, or set them in peaceful mode, if desired.

If burning bots is the problem, there are plenty of other defensive options without using flamethrowers and flamethrower turrets.

It doesn't make sense to change the game for this.

Tell me what you need, I'll tell you how to do without it .

The real question is why should you be opposed to the bots avoiding suicide by immolation ? Would it make the game worse for you ? Less enjoyable ? If not, why are you so opposed to the idea that would make the game more enjoyable to others ?

[Impatient]

There is a vanilla way with combinators to prevent builderbots fly into fire. It works under the condition, that flamer fuel storage and the roboport for a section of your defense are separated from the rest of the network.

- Have all the repair bots sit in a chest next to the roboport.
- Have combinators monitor the flamer fuel storage level.
- If it starts dropping, the circuit emits signal A .
- If it stops dropping, the circuit emits signal B, which can be used to insert builder bots into the roboport.
- After an additional countdown (with a length that allows builder bots to finish work and return to the port), all the bots are extracted from the port and put in the chest.

This way, no builder bots will repair anything as long as the flamers are active and presumably anything is burning while fighting is happening.

I share with you the circuitry that monitors the value of a signal and emits a signal if a condition you can set is met.

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

Copy blueprint

In case of a flamer defense, you would monitor signal "light oil" (if the flamers use light oil as fuel/ammo) and set the condition to {"old value" > "new value"} (fighting started). If the condition is met the circuitry will emit a signal. You can use this signal to start a 2nd circuitry of this layout where the condition is set to {"old value" == "new value"} (fighting stopped). When the 2nd circuitry emits its signal you can start a count down to wait some time until all fires burned out and then put the repair bots into action.

Summarized, the idea is:
- Don't let repair bots fly around as long as an attack is ongoing.
- How do I know when an attack starts and ends? When the ammo for turrets starts or stops dropping.

(You could also use this if you are working with a laser defense in a separated power network, by monitoring accu charge level.)

I use one of this circuitry to power up laser defense arrays, which otherwise are unpowered, to save on idle drain.

[Koub]

That's the kind of creative (but oh so convoluted) solution I think this aspect of the game shouldn't need so much of.

[Impatient]

Some aspects of this game are certainly a nerd snipe.

https://xkcd.com/356/

[mrvn]

There is a vanilla way with combinators to prevent builderbots fly into fire. It works under the condition, that flamer fuel storage and the roboport for a section of your defense are separated from the rest of the network.

Who says the fire is caused by your own flame throwers?

I actually find this case rather unimportant. Don't build things where flame throwers will fire at them. Problem solved.

[NotRexButCaesar]

it doesn't give an overwhelming advantage while removing nuisances

It would make turret creep using robots much more powerful. I am not sure whether that is considered an "overwhelming advantage" or not.

[Kyralessa]

I'm not using flame throwers. The aliens are. There are mods that change the kind of damage the spiters do to fire.

So you think the base game should be changed because you happen to be using a mod that makes it harder for your bots to survive?

[mrvn]

I'm not using flame throwers. The aliens are. There are mods that change the kind of damage the spiters do to fire.

So you think the base game should be changed because you happen to be using a mod that makes it harder for your bots to survive?

NO, I want them to be changed because the current behavior is just plain stupid.

Also consider vanilla multiplayer games with player-vs-player. A player can just roll up to your base with a tank and start fires to kill all your bots.

[Koub]

it doesn't give an overwhelming advantage while removing nuisances

It would make turret creep using robots much more powerful. I am not sure whether that is considered an "overwhelming advantage" or not.

Yeah I know, I had accounted for that in the "not overwhelming advantage". Turret creep used to be a thing back a few versions. Right now, it's still a valid way to clean nests, but there are efficient alternatives most of the time (depending on your military research and the evolution factor).

There is a narrow situation between "turret creep destroys a nest" (where not even vulnerable bots are an issue) and "whatever is done, the nest is too big not to lose turrets in the turret creep" (where even invulnerable bots won't change much of the balance). In this situation, invulnerable bots would give an edge to turret creep. The "Just need a bit more oomph" situation where the bots not dying would help the turrets survive long enough to destroy the enemy first.

I don't consider this as an overwhelming advantage.

[Kyralessa]

NO, I want them to be changed because the current behavior is just plain stupid.

Ah, the classic "insult the developers so they'll make the change you want."

[mrvn]

NO, I want them to be changed because the current behavior is just plain stupid.

Ah, the classic "insult the developers so they'll make the change you want."

I didn't attack the developers, only the bots. And I would be sorry to hurt they feelings if they had any programmed into them. But that's what we want, make them FEAR.

[mrvn]

it doesn't give an overwhelming advantage while removing nuisances

It would make turret creep using robots much more powerful. I am not sure whether that is considered an "overwhelming advantage" or not.

Yeah I know, I had accounted for that in the "not overwhelming advantage". Turret creep used to be a thing back a few versions. Right now, it's still a valid way to clean nests, but there are efficient alternatives most of the time (depending on your military research and the evolution factor).

There is a narrow situation between "turret creep destroys a nest" (where not even vulnerable bots are an issue) and "whatever is done, the nest is too big not to lose turrets in the turret creep" (where even invulnerable bots won't change much of the balance). In this situation, invulnerable bots would give an edge to turret creep. The "Just need a bit more oomph" situation where the bots not dying would help the turrets survive long enough to destroy the enemy first.

I don't consider this as an overwhelming advantage.

Wouldn't bots returning when half dead weaken turret creep? Because the turrets get

A) less repaired
B) fewer bots to distract the aliens from hitting the turrets

On the other hand you might loose more turrets but fewer repair bots. Turrets are cheap compared to bots. Is that a gain then?

[Koub]

Wouldn't bots returning when half dead weaken turret creep? Because the turrets get

A) less repaired
B) fewer bots to distract the aliens from hitting the turrets

On the other hand you might loose more turrets but fewer repair bots. Turrets are cheap compared to bots. Is that a gain then?

What I find tedious is not the few resources lost when a turret or a bot is destroyed. It's micromanaging the bots to always keep the right number where they should be.
When a defensive element is destroyed somewhere, I can rely on the ghost and my logistic network to have it replaced. A destroyed bot is destroyed for good, there is no simple way to replace bots at the exact same place where they are destroyed.

[mrvn]

Wouldn't bots returning when half dead weaken turret creep? Because the turrets get

A) less repaired
B) fewer bots to distract the aliens from hitting the turrets

On the other hand you might loose more turrets but fewer repair bots. Turrets are cheap compared to bots. Is that a gain then?

What I find tedious is not the few resources lost when a turret or a bot is destroyed. It's micromanaging the bots to always keep the right number where they should be.
When a defensive element is destroyed somewhere, I can rely on the ghost and my logistic network to have it replaced. A destroyed bot is destroyed for good, there is no simple way to replace bots at the exact same place where they are destroyed.

That's what makes this so annoying.

One solution though is to make the logistic zones not overlap/touch. Then each roboport is it's own logistic zone and you can watch the robot count from the roboport. You need to bring in replacement bots by belt or train then.

[quyxkh]

Can we also please make hammers avoid thumbs?

It takes some skill to make simple tools do the right thing. Control robots with logistic-net boundaries and circuitry when their simple little minds aren't already up to whatever task you have in mind for them. Detecting weapons fire with circuitry and unloading the repair bots whenever the weapons haven't been idle for at least say five seconds is not a particularly difficult design puzzle.

[mrvn]

Doesn't solve the problem of bots flying through forest fires or across alien bases though.

[Koub]

Can we also please make hammers avoid thumbs?

I wouldn't mind : what's interesting to do with a hammer is hammering nails, not evading thumbs. But I'm digressing.

It takes some skill to make simple tools do the right thing. Control robots with logistic-net boundaries and circuitry when their simple little minds aren't already up to whatever task you have in mind for them. Detecting weapons fire with circuitry and unloading the repair bots whenever the weapons haven't been idle for at least say five seconds is not a particularly difficult design puzzle.

In Factorio, almost everything is reliable, reproducible, deterministic, predictable, ... everything fits right. With the kind of solutions you describe, I have the feeling to try to mimic this with inadequate tools. Having to remove robots from the roboport just to prevent them doing their job and reinsert them on circuit conditions that are not even 100% reliable feels clunky to me.
If I were to reuse your metaphor, it would be like hammering a nail with a screwdriver. It does work - kind of - but it is neither an efficient way to hammer nails, nor a good way to evade thumbs.

Lastly, allow-me to be lazy :

The real question is why should you be opposed to the bots avoiding suicide by immolation ? Would it make the game worse for you ? Less enjoyable ? If not, why are you so opposed to the idea that would make the game more enjoyable to others ?

If something enhances the fun for some people without noticeably decreasing it for all the others, then it's worth considering it.

[ssilk]

Detecting weapons fire with circuitry and unloading the repair bots whenever the weapons haven't been idle for at least say five seconds is not a particularly difficult design puzzle.

The circuits are not reliable for this task. When power goes down below 50% satisfaction, circuits become slower or turn completely off.

All in all I tend meanwhile to move this suggestion to not implement, because there are so many ways to handle this differently. Other opinions?

Some ideas:
- split that roboport out of your global logistic network, feed in only 2 or 3 bots and repair-packs. With that you can minimize the loss and still repair fast enough.
- use repair-turret mod https://mods.factorio.com/mod/Repair_Turret
- use shields https://mods.factorio.com/mod/shield-generators https://mods.factorio.com/mod/shield-projector https://mods.factorio.com/mod/KingsTurret-Shields
- don’t use flame-throwers
- mix lasers and gun turrets to avoid big damages to your walls

In the end it is nothing which needs to be changed, because the player has chosen to build it so.

Build differently if you want to avoid a problem, not change the game to make it possible to build without problems.

[Impatient]

If you are using mods, then you can as well use one, that makes the bots invulnerable.