Inserter is "waiting for train", while train is standing at the station shouting "destination full"

[damog]

Hi,

My first post, though long time player.
I don't frequent the forums, so I have read the rules, and hope this post is okay.

I have tried fixing this myself, and I have figured out a workaround, but I would like to see if there is another way, or maybe it is an oversight (not a bug).


This is the situation:
- I have a train (fluid in my example, but it doesn't matter for the issue)

- There are 2 stations, a loading station, and an unloading station.

- The unloading station (pictured below) sets a train limit to `1` when there is enough room in storage tanks to receive a full load

unloading - train stop settings

hynAHiC - Imgur.png (743.93 KiB) Viewed 7817 times

- Here is the combinator settings for the unloading station:

unloading - combinator settings

2QnvK4a - Imgur.png (312.2 KiB) Viewed 7817 times

- The loading station (pictured below) has default settings.

loading station

undefined - Imgur.png (417.23 KiB) Viewed 7817 times

As you can see from the last image, the inserter won't insert fuel in to the train.
It does manage to complete a few swings while the actual loading is being performed, but only enough to add a few wood (this wouldn't be an issue with solid fuel)
I would expect the fuel to be inserter while the train waits for it's destination to become available.

After doing a little research, I think this is expected behaviour because I read this: (https://wiki.factorio.com/Railway#Trains)

Fuel can be added by inserters when the train is in manual mode or parked at a station, not when waiting at a signal or standing on automatic mode.

The train is in automatic mode, and it is not technically stopped/parked at the station, but 'standing'.

I'd like to point out, that this isn't difficult to work around. A fuelling station/depot could be added, a delay could be added to give more time for fuel to be loaded, etc.

I'd like to know what you all think- In your opinion, should the behaviour of the inserter be changed such that it loads while standing AND it hasn't left the station? Maybe a variation to this?

I don't know if it worth submitting a bug report for or not, and as I said, I'd be happy to work around it anyway.

Ta,
Damo

[SoShootMe]

Fueling trains does not normally seem to be an issue in practice, except if it's not happening at all. Perhaps if you load wood using a burner inserter with stack size 1...

Putting that to one side, I think fueling stopping when the conditions are met for the train to leave but it doesn't move (eg due to "destination full") can be seen as a "missed opportunity" to add more fuel.

The least amount of fuel loaded occurs when the train moves as soon as the conditions are met. If the train will definitely have enough fuel in that case, the missed opportunity doesn't matter. On the other hand, if it may not have enough fuel, then you should ensure it won't move until it does (eg an "Inactivity" condition), and the missed opportunity doesn't exist.

Maybe I'm missing something.

[Bauer]

The train is already heading for it's next destination.
Not a bug.
You have to refuel while it is waiting at the station like you describe in your post.

[mrvn]

How do you get "destination full"? Is that from a mod?

[Nightc0re]

How do you get "destination full"? Is that from a mod?

It's in the vanilla game, when you are using "Train Stop Limits".

For example, if you set the "Train Limit" to 1, only 1 train is allowed at this target station (destination).
So if there is already a train waiting at the target station, all other trains are waiting at the current station with the message "Destination Full".

In this case, the "Train Limit" is set to 0 (by circuit conditions), and therefore no train is allowed at the target station,
hence the message "Destination Full" is displayed, and the train won't go to the target station.

[astroshak]

Adding a few seconds of inactivity to the departing condition would allow the train to finish refueling before trying to go to its next stop.

[mrvn]

How do you get "destination full"? Is that from a mod?

It's in the vanilla game, when you are using "Train Stop Limits".

For example, if you set the "Train Limit" to 1, only 1 train is allowed at this target station (destination).
So if there is already a train waiting at the target station, all other trains are waiting at the current station with the message "Destination Full".

In this case, the "Train Limit" is set to 0 (by circuit conditions), and therefore no train is allowed at the target station,
hence the message "Destination Full" is displayed, and the train won't go to the target station.

Oh wow, I didn't even notice that the Train Stop now has an option for this. I always play with LTN where you set that differently.

[ptx0]

set a 2 second inactivity AND condition on the fuelling stop and it'll prevent it from moving on til it's done feeding fuel

[GrumpyJoe]

Oh wow, I didn't even notice that the Train Stop now has an option for this. I always play with LTN where you set that differently.

You mean the mod settings themselfs?
Because, iirc, the LTN scheduler does that automatically by adding the 2 sec inactivity to the depot station, where typically you set up the refueling.
I don't remember you have to set anything in game with LTN.


Anyway, @op
The suggested solution (inactivity at the station that is refueling, doesn't need to be a dedicated refueling station) is the right way to solve the puzzle Factorio is setting up for you with the given train functionality.
I wouldn't consider this a bug or missed opportunity.

AFAIK, trains used to be able to be loaded/unloaded when not parked at a station some years ago, "by accident".
Imagine a train that has 4 wagons with each of them loaded a different item. Maybe an outpost building train. Maybe it doesn't get fully loaded, for whatever reason. It then moves a couple of meters, trying to leave the station, to a signal that stops it. Now item A gets loaded into wagon B, because it's able to be loaded when not at a station.
That wouldn't be so bad, altho it could mess up some belts further down into the factory.

Now imagine trains with more then one locomotive. Those trains go to u loading stations.
And for whatever reason some locomotives get stopped at the wagon unloading part of the station. Now you got not only fuel unloaded where you don't want it, the whole train can be stopped by being "unfueled"

[mrvn]

Oh wow, I didn't even notice that the Train Stop now has an option for this. I always play with LTN where you set that differently.

You mean the mod settings themselfs?
Because, iirc, the LTN scheduler does that automatically by adding the 2 sec inactivity to the depot station, where typically you set up the refueling.
I don't remember you have to set anything in game with LTN.

That was regarding the train limit on stops. In LTN you set a signal how many trains LTN should send to a stop.

[GrumpyJoe]

Oh wow, I didn't even notice that the Train Stop now has an option for this. I always play with LTN where you set that differently.

You mean the mod settings themselfs?
Because, iirc, the LTN scheduler does that automatically by adding the 2 sec inactivity to the depot station, where typically you set up the refueling.
I don't remember you have to set anything in game with LTN.

That was regarding the train limit on stops. In LTN you set a signal how many trains LTN should send to a stop.

Which now, as I read what I quoted, is standing there anyway. I shouldn't post something before my 2nd coffee

[ptx0]

woulda been nice if you all would do off-topic chatter somewhere else. I have no idea whether OP saw the inactivity timeout suggestion.

[damog]

Hey all,

As I alluded to, I do already have a few work-arounds (e.g. adding a delay to allow for fuel loading)
From a 'gameplay help' perspective, these are the kind of solutions that I was looking for.

I was more curious though, whether there was a way do this without resorting to a work-around such as a delay, or fuelling elsewhere.

Thanks for everyone's help, I'd consider this as 'not a bug'.
The reason I posed the question was I thought maybe it was an edge-case that could have been overlooked in the game logic.

I think the behaviour should not be changed, as it would allow inserters to continue inserting after, for example, a circuit network has dismissed the train, but for one reason or another the train is 'standing' but it also hasn't physically left the station.


Ta,
D

[damog]

I have no idea whether OP saw the inactivity timeout suggestion.

I did actually miss it, but will try later - I can't believe I didn't think of trying it.

Ta,
D

update: As expected, an addition of 2s wait for inactivity (paired with AND) will release the train from the station once all fuel is inserted, or the fuel is full.

[mrvn]

Except when you have a brownout and the inserter is just too slow. Or are out of fuel.

I wish the stops had a condition: fuel > 10Mj

[ptx0]

Except when you have a brownout and the inserter is just too slow. Or are out of fuel.

I wish the stops had a condition: fuel > 10Mj

you can read an accumulator and put a circuit condition on train and say don't leave if red signal is present, which is pretty handy. you can stop trains from leaving in low power situation.

[mrvn]

Except when you have a brownout and the inserter is just too slow. Or are out of fuel.

I wish the stops had a condition: fuel > 10Mj

you can read an accumulator and put a circuit condition on train and say don't leave if red signal is present, which is pretty handy. you can stop trains from leaving in low power situation.

Or you can use a burner inserter.

And you need a condition that fuel is in the fuel chest if you want to make sure the train gets refueled. And if you have fuel with burned result (like atomic fuel) you need to make sure the spend fuel can be removed from the train too. Due to the no power case this has to be done in the schedule and not with combinators, which really sucks to set up for every single stop in the schedule of every single train.

Personally I just make sure my trains drive around with a decent load out so loading/unloading takes much longer than refueling. Having a train drive around 10 iron plates is just wasteful anyway.

[ptx0]

And if you have fuel with burned result (like atomic fuel) you need to make sure the spend fuel can be removed from the train too. Due to the no power case this has to be done in the schedule and not with combinators, which really sucks to set up for every single stop in the schedule of every single train.

i don't think that's actually a thing.

[GrumpyJoe]

Except when you have a brownout and the inserter is just too slow. Or are out of fuel.

Read hand contents of fueling inserter?
Don't know if they could grab more than they could insert, could get the train stuck forever.

[mrvn]

And if you have fuel with burned result (like atomic fuel) you need to make sure the spend fuel can be removed from the train too. Due to the no power case this has to be done in the schedule and not with combinators, which really sucks to set up for every single stop in the schedule of every single train.

i don't think that's actually a thing.

Not in vanilla with trains. Unless you can use oil or methan barrels in trains?

They introduced it in the nuclear reactor and then mods picked it up and used it in other places. For example Nullius has among others Hydrogen Canisters that burn and leave behind Water Canisters. It's often used as a way to make trains use liquid fuel. Several mods have liquids with fuel value that you can put into a barrel and use as fuel for trains.