show different appearance to blacklist/whitelist icons in alt mode

Post your ideas and suggestions how to improve the game.

Moderator: ickputzdirwech

Post Reply
psychogears
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2016 3:26 pm
Contact:

show different appearance to blacklist/whitelist icons in alt mode

Post by psychogears »

TL;DR
When using ALT mode, there's no visual distinction in the icon between a filter that's blacklisting or whitelisting the item.

What ?
There's no visual difference between a filter that's blacklisting vs a filter that's whitelisting. (attachment 1) I suggest either changing the blacklisting background to a color like red, since blacklisting is a new function of the filter inserter and the black background could be already strongly associated with a whitelisting filter inserter and does not defy the visual expectation of the veteran player, or changing the whitelisting background to something like light gray, so a black background would mean the filter is blacklisting and a (dark) white glow will mean the filter is whitelisting.
Why ?
One can more quickly distinguish at a glance using ALT mode what the filter is doing, leading to quicker decisionmaking.
Attachments
nodifference.png
nodifference.png (112.53 KiB) Viewed 4220 times

Eiermann
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:27 am
Contact:

Visualize negated filter inserters

Post by Eiermann »

Hey Ho!
TL;DR
Visualize the configuration of filtered inserters so players can see the difference.
What ?
i would like to see an indicator when a filter inserter has negated filters configured. At the moment you cannot recognize inserts with a positiv and a negative list. As you can see in the attachments.

The following changes could help:
a) show the configured filters in the info-bar
b) cross out the configured items
c) add additional icon that indicated a negated filter
Why ?
The following problems would be solved:
a) players can see the configuration across the map
b) players dont need to click on the inserter to see the configuration
Attachments
practice example
practice example
factorio-inserters-filtered-2.png (327.46 KiB) Viewed 4544 times
left side if positive, right side is negated
left side if positive, right side is negated
factorio-inserters-filtered.png (217.74 KiB) Viewed 4544 times

starlinvf
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 145
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2019 6:28 pm
Contact:

Re: Visualize negated filter inserters

Post by starlinvf »

you mean whitelist vs blacklist?

Eiermann
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:27 am
Contact:

Re: Visualize negated filter inserters

Post by Eiermann »

starlinvf wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:42 pm
you mean whitelist vs blacklist?
Yes!

User avatar
QGamer
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 213
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:27 pm
Contact:

Re: Visualize negated filter inserters

Post by QGamer »

What if the background was white for whitelisted items and black for blacklisted items?
"Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy."

User avatar
ssilk
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 12888
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:35 pm
Contact:

Re: Visualize negated filter inserters

Post by ssilk »

White/blacklisting is a very old filtering pattern in information science.

In both cases there is a list of items. The filter takes one incoming item and checks it against the entries in the list. Either the item goes through the filter, or not.

For blacklisting this means: if there is any entry in the list that matches, it is filtered out. For whitelist it means: if there is no entry in the list, it is filtered out. The difference is: blacklisting is good, if you have many items, that needs to be filtered, because there is a chance, that the list don’t need to be scanned completely, while whitelisting is good, if you have many items, that match with the list.

The disadvantage of blacklisting is, that you don’t know, after filtering, what items could be in the result-set. Because of that, it is a security anti-pattern.

The reason why that is called white/black is not so obvious: white and black are patterns of security information science. White means in security, that you are operating in a so called “white room” (also a pattern of information science), and means that you can see everything, all is clear, it is secure to use an item. Black, because there is also a “black room”, where you cannot trust an item, it is dark, not clear.

So the origins are AFAIK from security information science. :)

You can replace white/blacklisting in case of Factorio with positive/negative listing, because here this pattern is not used in security context.
Cool suggestion: Eatable MOUSE-pointers.
Have you used the Advanced Search today?
Need help, question? FAQ - Wiki - Forum help
I still like small signatures...

Eiermann
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:27 am
Contact:

Re: Visualize negated filter inserters

Post by Eiermann »

Its not about the naming convention. Its about the in-game visualisation. Currently you can not tell the difference between filter inserters by just looking at them (inserters with a blacklist configured look the same as inserters with a whitelist configured).

Just look at the example with the science packs. You simple cannot tell what the inserters are transfering from left to the right and vice versa (one has a blacklist, one has a whitelist).

User avatar
ssilk
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 12888
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:35 pm
Contact:

Re: Visualize negated filter inserters

Post by ssilk »

@Eiermann: The idea is very good. I just answered the question above, because I was curious.
Cool suggestion: Eatable MOUSE-pointers.
Have you used the Advanced Search today?
Need help, question? FAQ - Wiki - Forum help
I still like small signatures...

foamy
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 432
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:14 am
Contact:

Re: Visualize negated filter inserters

Post by foamy »

Eiermann wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:31 pm
Its not about the naming convention. Its about the in-game visualisation. Currently you can not tell the difference between filter inserters by just looking at them (inserters with a blacklist configured look the same as inserters with a whitelist configured).

Just look at the example with the science packs. You simple cannot tell what the inserters are transfering from left to the right and vice versa (one has a blacklist, one has a whitelist).
Yeah, it'd be nice of there was some kind of UI indicator in altmode about this. It can get real confusing in some builds that make use of both.

starlinvf
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 145
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2019 6:28 pm
Contact:

Re: Visualize negated filter inserters

Post by starlinvf »

Well... the most direct approach is to have an strike-through over the item icon. But I don't know off hand if this can be a layer, or if they'll have to double the number of icons to incorporate the visual.

As for the origins of the terms...... Black list goes way back. Light research (not just wiki) says its at least as old as the 1600s, indicating a list of people who are suspicious/evil ... and I'm inclined to believe it given the verbiage.

"Ye secret oppressors,..ye kind drunkards, and who euer come within this blacke list of wickednesse."

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/ ... klist_and/

User avatar
ssilk
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 12888
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:35 pm
Contact:

Re: Visualize negated filter inserters

Post by ssilk »

Interesting. 8-)
Cool suggestion: Eatable MOUSE-pointers.
Have you used the Advanced Search today?
Need help, question? FAQ - Wiki - Forum help
I still like small signatures...

Zool
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 105
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Visualize negated filter inserters

Post by Zool »

Absolutely amazing idea! The other day, I was looking for the error in a huge multiplayer factory, and only after starting to click through a good 100 inserters manually, I found that one that, for whatever reason, had whitelist instead of blacklist enabled.

User avatar
ickputzdirwech
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 768
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 10:16 am
Contact:

Re: Visualize negated filter inserters

Post by ickputzdirwech »

This is the same suggestion as this one: 66255 and should therefore be merged.

I noticed today that this kind of icon already exists. Exclusively for a deconstruction planner with "Trees/rocks only" however. And it's barely noticeable. They should change it to black maybe.
trees rocks only.png
trees rocks only.png (3.15 KiB) Viewed 4083 times
+1 to the suggestion.
Mods: Shortcuts for 1.1, ick's Sea Block, ick's vanilla tweaks
Tools: Atom language pack
Text quickly seems cold and unfriendly. Be careful how you write and interpret what others have written.
- A reminder for me and all who read what I write

User avatar
ssilk
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 12888
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:35 pm
Contact:

Re: show different appearance to blacklist/whitelist icons in alt mode

Post by ssilk »

merged

Nice find, ickputzdirwech!
Cool suggestion: Eatable MOUSE-pointers.
Have you used the Advanced Search today?
Need help, question? FAQ - Wiki - Forum help
I still like small signatures...

User avatar
spiral_power
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 167
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:17 am
Contact:

Re: show different appearance to blacklist/whitelist icons in alt mode

Post by spiral_power »

I've been playing Space Exploration ( more complex than vanilla ) lately and I really want a visualization of this setting.
There are w/b settings...
1.png
1.png (1.57 MiB) Viewed 3541 times

foamy
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 432
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:14 am
Contact:

Re: show different appearance to blacklist/whitelist icons in alt mode

Post by foamy »

Yeah, this is something I've wanted for ages. It gets particularly irksome in builds that do, by intent, both white- & black-listing of stuff, because troubleshooting it means clicking on individual inserters.

Dropping the do-not-allow symbol on top of the blacklist image seems to me to be a very simple resolution of the issue.

User avatar
SteelWolf300
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2016 11:21 am
Contact:

Re: show different appearance to blacklist/whitelist icons in alt mode

Post by SteelWolf300 »

Now that the devs are reworking the inserters (FFF-393), I thought it would be a good time to bring the suggestion again.

Example of current vs suggested, in a typical situation where I wouldn't want a whitelist on coal, in case I ever change fuel. Wouldn't the second be nice and clear visually?
blacklist-inserter.png
blacklist-inserter.png (450.8 KiB) Viewed 563 times
Of course since the filter inserters will be gone in 2.0 you will have regular inserters with blacklist filter instead, but you get the idea.

User avatar
spiral_power
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 167
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:17 am
Contact:

Re: show different appearance to blacklist/whitelist icons in alt mode

Post by spiral_power »

That's a nice look.
I wonder why dev set the number of filters to 5. 4 would make it easier to display icons.

User avatar
SteelWolf300
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2016 11:21 am
Contact:

Re: show different appearance to blacklist/whitelist icons in alt mode

Post by SteelWolf300 »

One shower thought later and it occurred to me that the block indicator (red circle) should probably be reversed between whitelist/blacklist when no item is specified.
inserter-filter-block-indicator.png
inserter-filter-block-indicator.png (232.47 KiB) Viewed 326 times

Post Reply

Return to “Ideas and Suggestions”