Anyone use barrels?

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blazespinnaker
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Re: Anyone use barrels?

Post by blazespinnaker »

Yoyobuae wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:54 pm
blazespinnaker wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:35 pm
Maybe on some speedruns they could be used to move sulfuric acid without having to spend time on pipe infra. Maybe. Its a stretch.
I was just looking into that. An Any% speedrun requires something like 2200 processing units to be made, which translates into 11000 sulfuric acid, which can be carried with 220 barrels (22 stacks). So less than one iron chest of barrels could supply the sulfuric acid needs for processing units for the entire run.

One problem with that is that steel is kinda a precious resource during speedruns, and using up 220 (212 if prod 1s are used) steel to make those barrels might not be worth.
I think the search space for optimization is very complicated. A lot of people try to reason it out, but I think it has to be done algorithmically because it's so vastly large. Some stuff at scale can be obviously written off, but when you look at bootstrapping, it starts to get tricky. For example, maybe using barrels for lubricant is good as it can help squeeze out a few more bots, which in turn can have a compound effect on times. (x bots could put down x miners/pipes/etc, which leads to more production, more bots, etc.)

Not saying this is true about bots/lubricant, just an example of the possible complications in reasoning it out.
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Re: Anyone use barrels?

Post by Kahnugo »

As I said I was just assuming that to be the case, so I was curious as to why it would unload in 1.3 seconds instead of 1.45 (derived from 23 items per second times 12).

I did the equivalent test to what I did with the fluid wagon and got 79 ticks (1.317 sec), so I guess it's more than 23 items per second or I'm forgetting to count the initial swing properly.

Edit: That's what is going on I'm sure, counting the first swing as being double throughput (roughly, don't really know how to do it exact) I'm getting just over 1.3 sec

blazespinnaker
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Re: Anyone use barrels?

Post by blazespinnaker »

I'm seeing 2 seconds+

How are you timing this?
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blazespinnaker
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Re: Anyone use barrels?

Post by blazespinnaker »

I slowed the game down to 0.1 and ran live split. I see 2 seconds / 5 swings. I have 1+11 stack size.

I drop power pole down and start counting.

The fluid attachment will add some time for sure if that's what you're subtracting.

Fluid attachment is practically 1/2 the time for fluid unload. Looks like it takes about 2 seconds as well with fluid unload (including attachment). That test I did with a standard fluid wagon getting refilled.

Let me know if you see the same thing and I'll update the wiki. EDIT, actually the wiki says 1.8s. That looks pretty close to what I got for fluid. What trick are you using to decrease that?
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Kahnugo
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Re: Anyone use barrels?

Post by Kahnugo »

blazespinnaker wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:08 pm
I'm seeing 2 seconds+

How are you timing this?
I've used a circuit counter to count how many ticks the train was at the unload station (train was setup to go to the unloading station until empty then proceed to the dummy station afterwards).

The unloading stations were for fluids 3 pumps connected empty tanks and for barrels 6 stack inserters on each side unloading into a chest.

I've used fluid trains set to unload until empty or when 2 sec has passed, they were able to unload full trains within the 2 seconds and so were the barrel trains using the same setup. So <2 sec times for both make sense.

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Re: Anyone use barrels?

Post by gGeorg »

kafucaka wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:02 am
Has anyone found cases where barrels are a better choice than fluid train cars?
I made a service train, which make deliveries to support defence wall. I wanted smallest train possible, so instead of whole tank wagon dedicated to light oil for flamers, I make barels and fill only part of the wagon. Which means more various spare parts can fit in.

Result is quite satisfying. When outpost receive deliveries, refill repair tools, walls, laser turrets, also full barrels of oil and send empty back.

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Re: Anyone use barrels?

Post by Yoyobuae »

Kahnugo wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 7:13 pm
I am a bit curious about the numbers, 1.8 seconds seems right for fluid wagons (tested ingame with a wagon and 3 pumps, emptied in 106 ticks) about the edit, how do you bypass the attachment delay (which I forgot about in my earlier post)?
Ah that explains why I got lower numbers, I didn't include attachment delay on my test. Opps. :oops:
Kahnugo wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 7:13 pm
About the stack inserter value, what is the math behind that? I was assuming that 27.6 per second for stack size 12 translated linearly into 23 per second for stack size 10. edit: Which gives 1.45 seconds to empty a wagon.
Initially the stack inserters have their hands over the rails. Once the train arrives the first pickup is instant. From there the 12 inserters execute 3 full swings. At the end of the third swing 4 stack inserters will pick up the last four stacks of barrels and the cargo wagon will be empty (ie. train can leave the train stop). Note that stack inserters can at maximum pickup a full item stack, since barrels only stack up to 10 items then stack inserters are limited to picking up 10 barrels at a time.

The total time from full to empty is just the time it takes to 3 full swings. Each swing takes 26 ticks for a total of 78 ticks. The last pickup takes 1 tick so 79 ticks. Divide number of ticks by 60 to get 1.3167 seconds.

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Re: Anyone use barrels?

Post by Kahnugo »

Yeah, I more or less figured it out after I tested it in game. I hadn't thought of one of the swings not being a full 360. Sadly no magic fluid loading setup I guess :( Without having run the numbers it seems like they've been balanced after station throughput, I'd expect it to be close to equal (fluids being slightly slower at the station, but using less time going in and out of stations because of fewer trains needed for the same throughput).

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Re: Anyone use barrels?

Post by SoShootMe »

Kahnugo wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:56 am
Without having run the numbers it seems like they've been balanced after station throughput, I'd expect it to be close to equal (fluids being slightly slower at the station, but using less time going in and out of stations because of fewer trains needed for the same throughput).
Measuring the time the train is at the stop, the maximum per-wagon fluid unload/load rate with barrels (12 stack inserters to/from chests) is 20k/79 ticks = ~15.2k/s, and with pumps (3 pumps to/from tanks) is 25k/106 ticks = ~14.2k/s. So barrels unload ~7.3% faster but require 25% more trains.

I didn't investigate thoroughly but given a 1-1 nuclear fuel-powered train takes about 50 ticks to clear a one wagon-length block accelerating from rest, I think they end up pretty comparable in the (fairly unrealistic) best possible case but in practice the "dead time" of trains approaching/leaving a stop - even with per-wagon signals to minimise it - will mean lower throughput with barrels.

Also, with barrels, you need to load/unload the empty ones; you could use extra stops and trains to support this, or simultaneously load and unload wagons but at half the rate.

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Re: Anyone use barrels?

Post by maxp779 »

I love barrels!

Im lazy and have a bot base and can't be bothered running pipe everywhere.

blazespinnaker
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Re: Anyone use barrels?

Post by blazespinnaker »

maxp779 wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:10 pm
I love barrels!

Im lazy and have a bot base and can't be bothered running pipe everywhere.
Yah, for sure. Very useful for temporary stop gap builds too.
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Re: Anyone use barrels?

Post by Fractaliste »

I mostly use barrels to carry inflammeable liquid to fireflam turrets. Because I only use these turrets on rarely hot bittered-attacked point who need some reinforcment.

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Re: Anyone use barrels?

Post by FunMaker »

I am currently playing a game with Angels and Bobs. Additionally i use https://mods.factorio.com/mod/crafting_combinator
So i switch Recipes very often.
The problem with switch recipes with assemblers that output different styles of fluids is, that cleaning the pipe network with pumps is not reliable. Even further with the "non fluid mixing" limitations introduced in the past it is even harder to keep multiple fluids in a pipe network.
So the best way to handle this problem for me was:
Don't use pipes! add a barreling assembler directly to the factory that produces the fluid. This way i change the recipe of the primary assembler and change the barreling recipe of the barreling assembler at once. This way the fluid mixing is no problem anymore because the fluids are only in the assemblers where i can switch the input/output accordingly.

In fact i would be happier if there would be a combinator possibility to clean up a pipe and another entity to keep pipe networks seperated but connectable by circuit. This way i could change the "bus-pipe" to the fluid i want to transfer in a clean way.

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disentius
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Re: Anyone use barrels?

Post by disentius »

made test setup in editor mode:
fluid unload barrels and pumps.png
fluid unload barrels and pumps.png (2.79 MiB) Viewed 685 times

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Re: Anyone use barrels?

Post by nr2117 »

I use barrels for light oil to be flown into remote walls for the flamethrowers.

I try to have a factory to make barrels and have the inserter stop when it reaches a certain limit, but I end up with far more barrels then what there should be. Why is that, are the barrels not counted when in flight?

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Re: Anyone use barrels?

Post by JimBarracus »

kafucaka wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:02 am
Has anyone found cases where barrels are a better choice than fluid train cars?
I use them for uranium mining.

filter for my waggons:
4 slots for sulfuric acid barrels
4 slots for empty barrels
rest for uranium ore

the ratio is off after researching several stages of mining productivity. I never bothered to calculate when 3 stacks or less barrels are enough to fill a wagon with uranium ore.

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Re: Anyone use barrels?

Post by Yoyobuae »

nr2117 wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 9:00 pm
I use barrels for light oil to be flown into remote walls for the flamethrowers.

I try to have a factory to make barrels and have the inserter stop when it reaches a certain limit, but I end up with far more barrels then what there should be. Why is that, are the barrels not counted when in flight?
The instant a item is scheduled for pickup by robot it is already removed from the logistic network item counts. You'll need a different method of controlling barrel counts (ie. circuit network).

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jodokus31
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Re: Anyone use barrels?

Post by jodokus31 »

Yoyobuae wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 7:04 am
nr2117 wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 9:00 pm
I use barrels for light oil to be flown into remote walls for the flamethrowers.

I try to have a factory to make barrels and have the inserter stop when it reaches a certain limit, but I end up with far more barrels then what there should be. Why is that, are the barrels not counted when in flight?
The instant a item is scheduled for pickup by robot it is already removed from the logistic network item counts. You'll need a different method of controlling barrel counts (ie. circuit network).
Not necessarily. You can output new barrels to a passive provider, if count is lower x in logi network. If a fillled barrels gets emptied, put the empty barrel into an active provider. That way you get at least x empty barrels, but not infinite more, bc used empty barrels have higher prio. X can be pretty low if you dont need much throughput.
Or you can combine it with a storage chest with barrel filter.
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Re: Anyone use barrels?

Post by SKKiro »

JimBarracus wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:04 am
kafucaka wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:02 am
Has anyone found cases where barrels are a better choice than fluid train cars?
I use them for uranium mining.

filter for my waggons:
4 slots for sulfuric acid barrels
4 slots for empty barrels
rest for uranium ore

the ratio is off after researching several stages of mining productivity. I never bothered to calculate when 3 stacks or less barrels are enough to fill a wagon with uranium ore.
That's a really cool use of them actually, I'll probably get to do that in the future instead of just sending a fluid wagon with acid in it.

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Re: Anyone use barrels?

Post by lovewyrm »

I...I use barrels cause I like barrels <_<
I like seeing them on belts. I like seeing them get processed in the assemblers.
I just like barrels. Would you rather be around barrels IRL or pipelines?
Barrels for me. They're more friendly than pipelines, and less prissy, too.

Oh no the pipeline is leaking now everything is gonna spray out ahhhhhh.
Oh no,a barrel is leaking, it's just one barrel tho, bad, but not awful.

Man, it's cold, oh look an empty barrel, time to make a fire.

A plumber is trying to steal my girl? Throw barrels.

Want to trade oil? Well, it's not measured in pipelines, now, is it?

This game is barrels of fun, not pipelines of fun.

Want to shoot carbide (it's a thing in some European places)? Get a barrel or a milkpail.

Barrel, barrel, barrel, barrel, barrel.

Checkmate pipetheists.

>but what about ingame numbers
-eats glue in front of all of you while watching barrels spin around-
Mhhh...horses....

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