I can't beat it...

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Drakken
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Re: I can't beat it...

Post by Drakken »

Thank you for that link. I was surprised to see that language on the page for modules considering it is not on the page more specifically for efficiency modules. My bad for not being thorough enough.

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Re: I can't beat it...

Post by freeafrica »

jodokus31 wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:31 am


You can try this:
Preview
Although, I'm not sure, oil setting is correct

This is the map, where I try my luck, currently.
I've started on this one. Getting that oil expansion on the north may cause some trouble, but for now everything's looking good. Added a screenshot, it should cover my tactics:
  1. I've used the external south-east coal patch (below the starting location) to load up w/ coal on start using 6 burner drills,
  2. go for electric drill before starting research automation,
  3. compress base size w/ least spagetthi having incoming biters path falling to corners,
  4. before green research, I've researched ammo dmg 1
  5. built turret feeding belt w/ pipe-defense (much cheaper than walls)
  6. focus on automation 2 (lowers pollution/research ratio)
  7. focus on steel furnace (lowers coal intake)
Preview
Gonna update once I get to oil.

jodokus31
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Re: I can't beat it...

Post by jodokus31 »

Looks nice. Only 17% Evolution and researching damage 2!
Good idea to mine coal from down there.

Only 10 labs? Did you research heavy armor? shooting speed? military2? fast inserter? steel axe?

Assembler2's need double the energy. Is it really a net pollution reduction?

EDIT: Yeah, should reduce pollution.
Assembler1 needs 4 + ~1.29 from boiler power. Assembler2 needs 3 + ~2.58 from boiler power and is 1.5 times faster

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freeafrica
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Re: I can't beat it...

Post by freeafrica »

jodokus31 wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:10 pm
Looks nice. Only 17% Evolution and researching damage 2!
Good idea to mine coal from down there.

Only 10 labs? Did you research heavy armor? shooting speed? military2? fast inserter? steel axe?
I've skipped all of those above, they are not necessary until reaching green-modules coverage
jodokus31 wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:10 pm
Assembler2's need double the energy. Is it really a net pollution reduction?

EDIT: Yeah, should reduce pollution.
Assembler1 needs 4 + ~1.29 from boiler power. Assembler2 needs 3 + ~2.58 from boiler power and is 1.5 times faster
Ye and don't forget, that they need to work for a shorter amount of time to produce the same quantity, hence shorter time for creating pollution and needing power (which is pollution too).

I've played a bit more yesterday, at the moment, my whole base is using `green modules`, so the pollution dropped drastically... it's peace time for heading into grey/blue science.

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Re: I can't beat it...

Post by freeafrica »

freeafrica wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:20 am
I've played a bit more yesterday, at the moment, my whole base is using `green modules`, so the pollution dropped drastically... it's peace time for heading into grey/blue science.
After my last screenshot, my focus was on reaching green-modules. Automation 2 - steel furnace - ammo dmg 2 researches gave enough breathing room to go that way.

Getting oil was a bit frustrating, since there were really few trees, I've needed to run around quite much to get necessary amount of power poles. On the plus-side, I didn't need to destroy any spawners to that northern oil patch. BTW, that field is really rich, from one field I'm getting 53/sec, that's a lot and enough for a whole while.

Most of the time that oil-well is actually unpowered, since its close to a biter patch, so I'm keeping an eye on it using the map. If the pollution hits a certain amount, I just remove a power-pole.

Note it's cheaper to use the simplest power poles and build a long line for powering oil (and fluid-pipes as well), instead of going into solar-tech or steel-power-poles (train in case of the fluid). These require research and a lot of steel.

When the green-modules research got completed, I've un-powered all of my research related buildings and only focused on mass producing green-modules adding to miners, then to assemblers. Research facilities will get them as well but only last.

After a good coverage I've restarted research for `Mining prod 1`, that also decreases the resource-created/pollution ratio, it actually has quite a big of impact.

Because of the increased evolution, spitters started to spawn in large numbers, so I've started weapon speed 1-2 research.

At last, I've increased the base-size and doubled-up the turrent defense line (this actually happened during all of the above).

A screenshot just before starting grey science, I will focus on ammo damage research for now as that will lower resource needs for defense. Also getting rocketry to make an expansion for iron. As the biggest pollution factor now is electric power generation, I'll head into nuclear research after.

My base now:
Preview

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Re: I can't beat it...

Post by jodokus31 »

Ok, it seems, that the defensive strategy works better. Reducing pollution as much as possible.
My approach with base cleaning with grenades is not very successful. Evolution gets really high and the pollution just spreads further ...

Regarding that oil. I upped all resources to 200% richness, maybe that's a bit too much for oil, because it directly increases pumping speed. The argument was, that increasing the richness only let the patches last longer for marathon...

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Re: I can't beat it...

Post by Drakken »

I tried playing the same map using different combinations of strategies.

I agree that being aggressive on biter nests does not pay off. Attacking bases really bumps up the evolution a LOT!!! However, it is likely possible and even beneficial once the flame turrets are up.

The real key to victory is staying with the yellow ammo until the flamethrower turrets come on line. The upgraded red ammo is obviously much too expensive for the boost in damage. Thanks for the advice! I always assumed this to be counter to how the game worked where more advanced stuff was more efficient in Factorio. I this case I assumed the extra damage more than compensated for the extra cost of red ammo. This is obviously flat out wrong. Never make assumptions!

The thing is on most maps that have a decent amount of pollution absorption, the pollution cost of red ammo doesn't generate enough enemies to run you into a deficit. The sand map with few trees really emphasizes the pollution cost/benefit ratio. However, it is also true that you have to switch over to red ammo eventually when evolution gets high enough or move to lasers. Flame turrets will always let a few biters through and the yellow ammo will not even touch behemoth biters.

By staying with yellow ammo... I decreased my steel and copper output by 75% each respectively and iron by 25% and yet have the same throughput for science plus more steel, copper, and iron for my non-ammo needs. The resulting lower pollution output let me get better defenses up, use less ammo, and gave just enough time for the needed technologies.

I am just about to get flame turrets up in my current run and even though the spitters are getting bad I should have a stable base soon.
Last edited by Drakken on Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: I can't beat it...

Post by Zavian »

Drakken wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:25 pm
The upgraded red ammo is obviously much too expensive for the boost in damage. Thanks for the advice! I always assumed this to be counter to how the game worked where more advanced stuff was more efficient in Factorio. Never make assumptions!
Because of the way resistances work you will eventually want to upgrade to red ammo. (From memory it is around the time when big biters start to appear. You will need a lot of yellow ammo to kill them, unless you have a lot of damage upgrades).

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Re: I can't beat it...

Post by freeafrica »

Drakken wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:25 pm
I tried playing the same map using different combinations of strategies.
The one we are playing on w/ @jodokus31 or the one you've posted before?
Drakken wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:25 pm
I agree that being aggressive on biter nests does not pay off. Attacking bases really bumps up the evolution a LOT!!! However, it is likely possible and even beneficial once the flame turrets are up.
I don't think it's worth on this kind of map. I mean eventually you'll need to clean up some bases, however @jodokus31 made a valid point, that w/ this map, pollution will just spread further, so it doesn't really matter that much.

On this map you'll need to clean up quite a huge section to get enough space so the pollution evaporated before hitting biter bases. This will raise evolution w/ such a high amount, that in defense-cost resources it would've been cheaper w/o doing the whole cleanup and just keep defending the waves. I would postpone it to the very late game.
Drakken wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:25 pm
The real key to victory is staying with the yellow ammo until the flamethrower turrets come on line. The upgraded red ammo is obviously much too expensive for the boost in damage. Thanks for the advice! I always assumed this to be counter to how the game worked where more advanced stuff was more efficient in Factorio. I this case I assumed the extra damage more than compensated for the extra cost of red ammo. This is obviously flat out wrong. Never make assumptions!
Ye, you are right, it's weirdly expensive because of the marathon aspect. For large biters you'll need it maybe, I'm not sure 'cause I never use fire-defense. I might give a try.

All in all, I think these maps can be beaten which you guys posted. Even though I feel they shouldn't be... because it's an insanely hard setting. That is why I feel that lvl1-green-modules are OP. I've ringed that bell multiple times now, I don't feel they will change it. :(

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Re: I can't beat it...

Post by jodokus31 »

Drakken wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:25 pm
I am just about to get flame turrets up in my current run and even though the spitters are getting bad I should have a stable base soon.
Well done. I didn't succeed so far.
freeafrica wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:23 pm
All in all, I think these maps can be beaten which you guys posted. Even though I feel they shouldn't be... because it's an insanely hard setting. That is why I feel that lvl1-green-modules are OP. I've ringed that bell multiple times now, I don't feel they will change it. :(
Yes, efficiency modules change this setting more or less immediately, because the impact is not only pollution reduction of the machine, but also power, which is additional pollution reduction.
An electric miner has 10/min + 90kW power consumption. This means 11.5/min with boiler power.
With 3 mk1 modules it's 2/min + 18kW. -> 2.3/min

And additionally, it's the best of the green modules. mk2 module is much more expensive and is not better than 3 mk1 modules for machines with 3 or more slots, maybe usable in electric furnace or pumpjack, which have only 2 slots. mk3 module is insanely expensive with not much advantages

Next challenge: No green modules and lazy bastard ;)

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Re: I can't beat it...

Post by freeafrica »

jodokus31 wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:07 pm
Yes, efficiency modules change this setting more or less immediately, because the impact is not only pollution reduction of the machine, but also power, which is additional pollution reduction.
An electric miner has 10/min + 90kW power consumption. This means 11.5/min with boiler power.
With 3 mk1 modules it's 2/min + 18kW. -> 2.3/min
Also you need less coal since you don't need to burn that much for the lower power usage, hence it also lowers extra pollution created by the coal miners.
jodokus31 wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:07 pm
mk3 module is insanely expensive with not much advantages
In late game I use lot of mk3 green mods. All of my science pack assemblers have 4 mk3 prod mods, so I surround them with mk3-green beacons.

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Re: I can't beat it...

Post by Drakken »

This is the current map I am playing on. I have installed the flamethrower turrets around the entire base and have changed over to red ammo and my pollution has gone way up. I am now on my way setting up production of advanced circuits. So I made it to safety without the modules by rushing to the flame turrets. I suppose I could continue to completion without using the modules? You are right the modules are extremely powerful in game. Hopefully you have shown that you can rush to them instead of going for the defensive option of the flame turrets and survive by maximizing efficiency.

I was able to encompass the solitary oil spot to the south in my base. Once I get blue potions going I am going to need to expand my base to get another source of oil, iron, and copper. That will be challenging, but I don't think I can lose at this point. The flame turrets are that effective at protecting the base once you have them up.

My evolution factor is at .406 at 6:45 into the game. 55% time 45% pollution.

Interestingly... I haven't played this far into the game for a very very long time because, I didn't know that oil processing 1 only made natural gas now. Hehe... obviously earlier than version 0.17.60

Maybe the game has some more surprises for me and somehow the bugs will wipe me out. I've just never lost once I have defenses like this up in the past.

Now I have to rethink my oil setup.

Code: Select all

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<<
Last edited by Drakken on Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Drakken
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Re: I can't beat it...

Post by Drakken »

I figured out how to post images. How exciting! Or did I?

Image

Image

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Re: I can't beat it...

Post by Koub »

You're posting your links as images, but the target is not an image, but a web page of your Steam library where an image is embedded.
What you were trying to do is this I guess
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Re: I can't beat it...

Post by mudcrabempire »

freeafrica wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:23 pm
I don't think it's worth on this kind of map. I mean eventually you'll need to clean up some bases, however @jodokus31 made a valid point, that w/ this map, pollution will just spread further, so it doesn't really matter that much.

On this map you'll need to clean up quite a huge section to get enough space so the pollution evaporated before hitting biter bases. This will raise evolution w/ such a high amount, that in defense-cost resources it would've been cheaper w/o doing the whole cleanup and just keep defending the waves. I would postpone it to the very late game.
True, didn't think of that. My experience comes from regular MD, where destroying some bases can make the difference between -bases in large pollution cloud- and -pollution gets reasonably dissolved by nature- . Working on a regular DM world right now, but this post got me challenged.. I'll probably try hardcore DM, once I'm properly warmed up and then I can put my helpfull advice to the test before posting it ;P .
freeafrica wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:32 pm
In late game I use lot of mk3 green mods. All of my science pack assemblers have 4 mk3 prod mods, so I surround them with mk3-green beacons.
Be carefull with the math. With quad prod3 it is at first way more efficient, both, in terms of energy/resource and pollution/resource, to use speed beacons instead. The turnover point is around 6 beacons. So with less than 6 beacons using speed3 is more efficient, with 6 beacons it's roughly the same (same efficiency, not same speed), and with more than 6 beacons efficiecy3 pulls the lead in terms of efficiency. Until you hit the cap which requires 8 eff3 beacons. After the 8th beacon you can add beacons with speed3 and eff3 such that the effs compensate the speeds to further increase efficiency, but at that point you're probably running out of beacon space.

Note: You can call it a super-late consideration and therefore not relevant for this thread, and if you get that far you can probably do whatever you want, but 8 eff3 beacons (a row to each side of the assemblers) allows you to get that 1.4 productivity for only 2.5 times the pollution of putting 3 eff1 into the assembler (only 4prod3 is about 20 times the pollution). With 12 beacons (surrounded assembler), 11 with eff3 and 1 with speed3 you get the 1.4productivity almost for nothing (nothing other than 12 beacons, 24 modules3 and power for the beacons, that is).
Since these 1.4productivity boosts can add up nicely if used strategically (for the expensive stuff), heavy beacons may be worth considering before the megabase-stage (maybe even before rocket?).

But now I'm talking about stuff that I don't really have experience with right after writing that I shouldn't do that, so take it with a grain of salt, and I'll be back once I've actually tried it.

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Re: I can't beat it...

Post by Drakken »

Thanks Koub!

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Re: I can't beat it...

Post by HadesSupreme »

Once you've stabilized around laser/flamethrower defenses/clean power/efficiency modules, what's the easiest and quickest way to clear entire maps of alien bases out? Assuming we don't have the incredibly expensive stuff like artillery/nukes/power armor 2. I've always kind of hit an effort roadblock in marathon deathworld where it took much IRL time slowly picking apart bases that I eventually gave up.

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Re: I can't beat it...

Post by Koub »

One of the easiest ways is by turret creep. Not elegant, but efficient, easy to reproduce, and doable early.
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Re: I can't beat it...

Post by JimBarracus »

HadesSupreme wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:55 am
Once you've stabilized around laser/flamethrower defenses/clean power/efficiency modules, what's the easiest and quickest way to clear entire maps of alien bases out? Assuming we don't have the incredibly expensive stuff like artillery/nukes/power armor 2. I've always kind of hit an effort roadblock in marathon deathworld where it took much IRL time slowly picking apart bases that I eventually gave up.
poison capsules are fairly cheap and quite effective against worms. Three of them are enough to kill the big worms.
As a bonus you also damage the biters in the area.
A fire cluster between you and the biters can already stop them.
You need some exoskeletons to be able to run away from the biters and dodge the acid easier.

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Re: I can't beat it...

Post by Theikkru »

The tank is really good if you know how to use it properly and you have decent damage upgrades. Use the explosive shells, and have a few combat bots with you to take care of incoming biters.

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