pY Coal Processing - Discussion

pyanodon's mods are here

Moderator: pyanodon

immortal_sniper1
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 769
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:54 am
Contact:

Re: pY Coal Processing - Discussion

Post by immortal_sniper1 »

That would be a good way

Or simply start off with say 4 small oil dericks that would be enough fuel by volume and value for a fee glass works


And yes how hard getting that fuel drops very fast by red green it can be fully automated from water

Also the power as fuel ,usage in glass might have been also affected by a satisfactory vid I saw some time ago , since in that game power is sorta hard early

immortal_sniper1
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 769
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:54 am
Contact:

Re: pY Coal Processing - Discussion

Post by immortal_sniper1 »

kalashn1k0v wrote: ↑
Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:19 am
Guys, is it really a problem that glassworks takes 27MW?
I was really busy with other staff like figuring out how to build and organize moss/trees/auogs/others and other staff in the early game. Yeah, science was made slowly, few flasks per min or less, and it was enough.
I made a loop trees->coal/coalgas/tar->coke/coalgas/tar-> syngas and I didn't need raw coal at all.
Also I switched to syngas as soon as it was available and also processed byproduct tar into coalgas.
If you ask whether glassworks worked smoothly, no they didn't, and the bottleneck was fuel, yes.
But I didn't have problems with glass at all. Usually it was something else.
BTW, later you'll have a really nice way to process tar into diesel and tall oil, which are 0.9MJ and 1.0MJ.
I'm going for a blue science at the moment, so I don't think that early game glassworks was so terrible :D
Eureka that was more or less planned also I didn't expect people would try to run them useing raw coal based setups

Crixomix
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 77
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:10 am
Contact:

Re: pY Coal Processing - Discussion

Post by Crixomix »

immortal_sniper1 wrote: ↑
Sun Jul 12, 2020 1:46 pm

Eureka that was more or less planned also I didn't expect people would try to run them useing raw coal based setups
How are you supposed to use wood?! There's no automatic way to collect wood/make wood without getting through red science to coal processing unless I missed something, right?

And 10 wood only generates 10 coal, which generates 10 CG + 30 tar. And 10 coal generates 40CG + 50 tar.

So you get 50 + 80 = 130 * 200kj = 26MJ of liquid fuels. So you get about ONE SECOND of glassworks time from collecting 2.5 trees??

More math. You need 2/3 glassware for 1 science. This takes 4/3 of a sec in glassworks for 2/3 glassware. So there's 13ish wood (turned into liquid fuels)

So you need 66.7 molten glass. 10 molten glass takes 5 secs. So 66.7 takes 33.333 secs of glassworks time. Ergo you need 333 wood to provide the liquid fuel for this.

All said and done, you need about 350 wood PER red science pack if that's how you're getting the liquid fuel?

When you say you weren't expecting people would run them using raw coal based setups, how else would you do it? You surely can't expect people to run around collecting thousands and thousands of wood by hand to run them, right?

10 raw coal -> 90 liq fuel + 3 coal -> 27 liq fuel -> 117 liq fuel total. So you need about 12 raw coal to do the same thing as 10 wood, but raw coal can be easily mined at least.

In any case, needing about 300-400 raw coal PER science pack, even for the early game, has to be a bit absurd, right?

AndrewSkier
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon May 04, 2020 6:48 pm
Contact:

Re: pY Coal Processing - Discussion

Post by AndrewSkier »

A suggestion for very early start would be to have DDC produce coal gas only from raw coal and up coal gas fuel value a bit.
I don't think anyone uses early raw coal processing for long anyways, so that would help early game.
I understand PY suite should be hard, but I think the current setup will discourage a lot of not so experienced players as it's frustrating to try to manage tar vs coal gas without any tanks and on top of it needing a lot of it just to get 1 science out.

immortal_sniper1
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 769
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:54 am
Contact:

Re: pY Coal Processing - Discussion

Post by immortal_sniper1 »

Crixomix wrote: ↑
Sun Jul 12, 2020 3:20 pm
immortal_sniper1 wrote: ↑
Sun Jul 12, 2020 1:46 pm

Eureka that was more or less planned also I didn't expect people would try to run them useing raw coal based setups
How are you supposed to use wood?! There's no automatic way to collect wood/make wood without getting through red science to coal processing unless I missed something, right?

And 10 wood only generates 10 coal, which generates 10 CG + 30 tar. And 10 coal generates 40CG + 50 tar.

So you get 50 + 80 = 130 * 200kj = 26MJ of liquid fuels. So you get about ONE SECOND of glassworks time from collecting 2.5 trees??

More math. You need 2/3 glassware for 1 science. This takes 4/3 of a sec in glassworks for 2/3 glassware. So there's 13ish wood (turned into liquid fuels)

So you need 66.7 molten glass. 10 molten glass takes 5 secs. So 66.7 takes 33.333 secs of glassworks time. Ergo you need 333 wood to provide the liquid fuel for this.

All said and done, you need about 350 wood PER red science pack if that's how you're getting the liquid fuel?

When you say you weren't expecting people would run them using raw coal based setups, how else would you do it? You surely can't expect people to run around collecting thousands and thousands of wood by hand to run them, right?

10 raw coal -> 90 liq fuel + 3 coal -> 27 liq fuel -> 117 liq fuel total. So you need about 12 raw coal to do the same thing as 10 wood, but raw coal can be easily mined at least.

In any case, needing about 300-400 raw coal PER science pack, even for the early game, has to be a bit absurd, right?
For early early game it is a lot but after syngas and dericks it becomes less

When it comes to balance the problem from my side was how to not make fuel usage irrelevant after green science
In a way that would not promote the use of spamming early game recipes , maybe upscale recipe from quartz so that u use less fuel per glass


Also there is also the gas burners that use the same system to make power and as demonstrated by a well known streamer spamming them early game is great


At what tech was ralesia methane? That for example is a point where u can grow power from water methane was a good fuel and at blue there are the enriched recipes that make the better fuels


In a sense I am sorta limited by game engine too since ideally I would have say 5me up to tech x after it 10mw and after that 27mw , at that point fuel should not be a problem but sufficient to keep in mind

BoF for example use trace amounts of fuel so it is a u can for get it thing but acr furnaces use granite that ears a far amount of coke enough to keep in mind but not exagerated

ShadowGlass
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 65
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 1:50 pm
Contact:

Re: pY Coal Processing - Discussion

Post by ShadowGlass »

Glass Fibers with Hot Air recipe can't be used in Glassworks (needs 3 input fluid boxes)
20200713205324_1.jpg
20200713205324_1.jpg (179.18 KiB) Viewed 2444 times

vaendryl
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:21 pm
Contact:

Re: pY Coal Processing - Discussion

Post by vaendryl »

I agree that it's insanely expensive but at the same time I kinda see that as a clear game design choice. there are a ton of things in the early game making things super hard on you. no assemblers/splitters/undergrounds, horrifically low yields from ores and indeed glassworks taking up insane amounts of energy to run. it seems completely arbitrary but in that sense it's in line with what the games tries to to: kick you in the nuts and make you ask for more.

the recent addition of the hot air recipe for flasks allows you to very easily triple your yields of flasks and in turn reduce the effective per flask energy cost by 66%. you can get that *really* fast. as soon as you get a bit of red science going all those previous roadblocks disappear, really. especially since you also rapidly gain oil derricks->fuel oil to power your stuff.

it's an early game hurdle among a *lot* of other early game hurdles but you can deal with it without that much issue. just don't try and build infrastructure for 1 science/minute without having any research at all. I made that mistake and i see a lot of others do that too. you're really not supposed to start to scale up until after you get the bare minimum research done.

immortal_sniper1
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 769
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:54 am
Contact:

Re: pY Coal Processing - Discussion

Post by immortal_sniper1 »

vaendryl wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:15 am
I agree that it's insanely expensive but at the same time I kinda see that as a clear game design choice. there are a ton of things in the early game making things super hard on you. no assemblers/splitters/undergrounds, horrifically low yields from ores and indeed glassworks taking up insane amounts of energy to run. it seems completely arbitrary but in that sense it's in line with what the games tries to to: kick you in the nuts and make you ask for more.

the recent addition of the hot air recipe for flasks allows you to very easily triple your yields of flasks and in turn reduce the effective per flask energy cost by 66%. you can get that *really* fast. as soon as you get a bit of red science going all those previous roadblocks disappear, really. especially since you also rapidly gain oil derricks->fuel oil to power your stuff.

it's an early game hurdle among a *lot* of other early game hurdles but you can deal with it without that much issue. just don't try and build infrastructure for 1 science/minute without having any research at all. I made that mistake and i see a lot of others do that too. you're really not supposed to start to scale up until after you get the bare minimum research done.
i am also sorta limited from a game point of view since if was like recipe power cost is not dependent on time then maybe it would be easyer to balance for super early game but atm power used is time*[max power usable]

if i reduce time to much then a lot of people will not upgrade since it is low fuel usage and fast and simply mine more ore
max power usable was already discussed

Blokus
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 245
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:49 pm
Contact:

Re: pY Coal Processing - Discussion

Post by Blokus »

kalashn1k0v wrote: ↑
Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:19 am
Guys, is it really a problem that glassworks takes 27MW?
I was really busy with other staff like figuring out how to build and organize moss/trees/auogs/others and other staff in the early game. Yeah, science was made slowly, few flasks per min or less, and it was enough.
I made a loop trees->coal/coalgas/tar->coke/coalgas/tar-> syngas and I didn't need raw coal at all.
Also I switched to syngas as soon as it was available and also processed byproduct tar into coalgas.
If you ask whether glassworks worked smoothly, no they didn't, and the bottleneck was fuel, yes.
But I didn't have problems with glass at all. Usually it was something else.
BTW, later you'll have a really nice way to process tar into diesel and tall oil, which are 0.9MJ and 1.0MJ.
I'm going for a blue science at the moment, so I don't think that early game glassworks was so terrible :D
Before the addition of molten glass to glass and the removal of stone furnace glass, I mostly agreed with you. Keeping the glassworks alive was the main scale obstacle when I was playing a few weeks ago, but it could be done without an obscene amount of brute force. You'd probably want your raw coal richness to be really high (more than 200%...), because I wouldn't be surprised if you got through half a million raw coal before reaching raw coal 01 at that time, unless you run both a coal gas glassworks and a tar glassworks (in which case you're going to be sad when you run out of aluminum a little while later). The alternative is to clear cut forests (with PyQuickStart, which AFAICT is just intended to be canon now, with the amount of early game brutality that is going around these days), but that's not so great either since you'll burn through a stack of wood in under a minute.

But with 135 MJ of liquid energy being required to make a single piece of glass in the early game, this argument just doesn't make sense anymore. And 50 MJ (edit: actually 56 MJ) is not really all that much better.

By the way, it should be pointed out that this change to glass is not Py Alien Life being like "you put this on yourself, deal with it". This affects even PyCP alone. In not-PyAL I would actually argue that it makes early game tedium worse, because there's less going on, since red science is just glass + coke + fawogae.
Last edited by Blokus on Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

immortal_sniper1
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 769
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:54 am
Contact:

Re: pY Coal Processing - Discussion

Post by immortal_sniper1 »

Blokus wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:03 pm
kalashn1k0v wrote: ↑
Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:19 am
Guys, is it really a problem that glassworks takes 27MW?
I was really busy with other staff like figuring out how to build and organize moss/trees/auogs/others and other staff in the early game. Yeah, science was made slowly, few flasks per min or less, and it was enough.
I made a loop trees->coal/coalgas/tar->coke/coalgas/tar-> syngas and I didn't need raw coal at all.
Also I switched to syngas as soon as it was available and also processed byproduct tar into coalgas.
If you ask whether glassworks worked smoothly, no they didn't, and the bottleneck was fuel, yes.
But I didn't have problems with glass at all. Usually it was something else.
BTW, later you'll have a really nice way to process tar into diesel and tall oil, which are 0.9MJ and 1.0MJ.
I'm going for a blue science at the moment, so I don't think that early game glassworks was so terrible :D
Before the addition of molten glass to glass and the removal of stone furnace glass, I mostly agreed with you. Keeping the glassworks alive was the main scale obstacle when I was playing a few weeks ago, but it could be done without an obscene amount of brute force. You'd probably want your raw coal richness to be really high (more than 200%...), because I wouldn't be surprised if you got through half a million raw coal before reaching raw coal 01 at that time, unless you run both a coal gas glassworks and a tar glassworks (in which case you're going to be sad when you run out of aluminum a little while later). The alternative is to clear cut forests (with PyQuickStart, which AFAICT is just intended to be canon now, with the amount of early game brutality that is going around these days), but that's not so great either since you'll burn through a stack of wood in under a minute.

But with 135 MJ of liquid energy being required to make a single piece of glass in the early game, this argument just doesn't make sense anymore. And 50 MJ is not really all that much better.

By the way, it should be pointed out that this change to glass is not Py Alien Life being like "you put this on yourself, deal with it". This affects even PyCP alone. In not-PyAL I would actually argue that it makes early game tedium worse, because there's less going on, since red science is just glass + coke + fawogae.
i forgot that glass in stone furnace was removed , i should make a fast recipe(fast since it would use just a little fuel ) but not great in terms on molten/quartz ratio

and it affects all mod combinations since it is a pyCP thing not pyAL

i need to finish bioprinting then i will take a look again ( tho i need py s approval to post changes )

Baughn
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 82
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:44 pm
Contact:

Re: pY Coal Processing - Discussion

Post by Baughn »

immortal_sniper1 wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:32 pm
i forgot that glass in stone furnace was removed , i should make a fast recipe(fast since it would use just a little fuel ) but not great in terms on molten/quartz ratio

and it affects all mod combinations since it is a pyCP thing not pyAL

i need to finish bioprinting then i will take a look again ( tho i need py s approval to post changes )
Do you happen to have the original sound files for the destructive distillation column?

It's just... I can't play the game while it sounds like this. I'm happy to do the fixing, but I don't want to offer a degraded version of the sounds either.

immortal_sniper1
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 769
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:54 am
Contact:

Re: pY Coal Processing - Discussion

Post by immortal_sniper1 »

Baughn wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:25 pm
immortal_sniper1 wrote: ↑
Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:32 pm
i forgot that glass in stone furnace was removed , i should make a fast recipe(fast since it would use just a little fuel ) but not great in terms on molten/quartz ratio

and it affects all mod combinations since it is a pyCP thing not pyAL

i need to finish bioprinting then i will take a look again ( tho i need py s approval to post changes )
Do you happen to have the original sound files for the destructive distillation column?

It's just... I can't play the game while it sounds like this. I'm happy to do the fixing, but I don't want to offer a degraded version of the sounds either.
no for stuff like that talk with py , are u on discord (our server) u can ask there

Baughn
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 82
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:44 pm
Contact:

Re: pY Coal Processing - Discussion

Post by Baughn »

immortal_sniper1 wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:41 pm
no for stuff like that talk with py , are u on discord (our server) u can ask there
I would be, but can't find a link. Help?

immortal_sniper1
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 769
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:54 am
Contact:

Re: pY Coal Processing - Discussion

Post by immortal_sniper1 »

Baughn wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:20 pm
immortal_sniper1 wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:41 pm
no for stuff like that talk with py , are u on discord (our server) u can ask there
I would be, but can't find a link. Help?
https://discord.gg/SNVbNC

rex_archer97_cz
Manual Inserter
Manual Inserter
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:25 am
Contact:

Re: pY Coal Processing - Discussion

Post by rex_archer97_cz »

So today I updated my game to 18.35. and installed some smaller mods together with Py suite. While loading prototypes for Petroleum handling I got an error message about a recipe "Hot air flask" bein in crafting ctegory but has a non-item ingredient "hot air"

I'm not really sure what to do about this issue because playing without a part of the suite is not really an option.

kingarthur
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1402
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 11:39 am
Contact:

Re: pY Coal Processing - Discussion

Post by kingarthur »

rex_archer97_cz wrote: ↑
Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:42 am
So today I updated my game to 18.35. and installed some smaller mods together with Py suite. While loading prototypes for Petroleum handling I got an error message about a recipe "Hot air flask" bein in crafting ctegory but has a non-item ingredient "hot air"

I'm not really sure what to do about this issue because playing without a part of the suite is not really an option.
well a mod list helps. wild stab in the dark but im guessing one of those mods is pyfunctional.

Baughn
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 82
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:44 pm
Contact:

Re: pY Coal Processing - Discussion

Post by Baughn »

immortal_sniper1 wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:16 pm
https://discord.gg/SNVbNC
That doesn't seem to be working.

I guess it's expired? It's the weekend now, so I should be able to check the forum more often.

immortal_sniper1
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 769
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:54 am
Contact:

Re: pY Coal Processing - Discussion

Post by immortal_sniper1 »

Baughn wrote: ↑
Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:42 am
immortal_sniper1 wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:16 pm
https://discord.gg/SNVbNC
That doesn't seem to be working.

I guess it's expired? It's the weekend now, so I should be able to check the forum more often.
https://discord.gg/mZYwkp

Nekogui
Manual Inserter
Manual Inserter
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:58 pm
Contact:

Re: pY Coal Processing - Discussion

Post by Nekogui »

The discord link don't works

dan96kid
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:56 am
Contact:

Re: pY Coal Processing - Discussion

Post by dan96kid »

Any reason why most of the mk2-4 buildings are disabled? I'm asking cause I was messing around and noticed that mk2-4 versions of most of the buildings exist, they're uncraftable.

Post Reply

Return to β€œPyMods”