gun vs laser turret balance: play around with range

[Boogieman14]

There's numerous discussions all over the forum about how gun turrets pretty much become obsolete once laser turrets are researched. Now it appears that the new spitters outrange gun turrets (https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... f=7&t=6356), but likely won't outrange laser turrets. Another nail in the gun turret's coffins.

Perhaps balance could be shifted back into the other direction by giving gun turrets a slightly bigger range than laser turrets, and matching spitter range with this bigger gun turret range. That would give gun turrets a clear benefit over lasers and could possibly offset the extra cost and effort in building and maintaining them.

[The Phoenixian]

There's numerous discussions all over the forum about how gun turrets pretty much become obsolete once laser turrets are researched. Now it appears that the new spitters outrange gun turrets (https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... f=7&t=6356), but likely won't outrange laser turrets. Another nail in the gun turret's coffins.

Perhaps balance could be shifted back into the other direction by giving gun turrets a slightly bigger range than laser turrets, and matching spitter range with this bigger gun turret range. That would give gun turrets a clear benefit over lasers and could possibly offset the extra cost and effort in building and maintaining them.

Honestly, this would strike me as a fairly excellent way to work it. Not only are gun turrets encouraged to stand alongside lasers but it's also flexible enough that other defenses, such as minefields, could work alongside laser turrets as well.

[ssilk]

I don't see the need. Gun turrets are in my bases the "last line". Everything the lasers haven't managed, the gun turrets will do. They have much more firepower and don't need electricity, if you use burner inserters and feed them with a belt half coal, half magazines.

Much more needed: Something like artillery turrets. Or more useful mines.

Be clever: Everything is already in the game!

[Boogieman14]

My point is that there currently is zero reason to use gun turrets beyond the early game, they simply aren't worth the extra effort of making ammo and getting it there. Lasers handle even the biggest attacks easily, and now with spitters introduced, lasers are even the only option for defense because guns simply don't reach spitters. My proposal would actually give guns some much needed advantage over lasers.

[The Phoenixian]

I don't see the need. Gun turrets are in my bases the "last line". Everything the lasers haven't managed, the gun turrets will do. They have much more firepower and don't need electricity, if you use burner inserters and feed them with a belt half coal, half magazines.

Much more needed: Something like artillery turrets. Or more useful mines.

Be clever: Everything is already in the game!

Wait a minute, my OS may be preventing me from using the latest update but Ssilk, are you implying here that Laser turrets, and not just gun turrets, are also incapable of hitting spitters?

Because if so that changes a lot.

[ssilk]

No, even if I haven't played to that point I'm quite sure, the lasers will.

@boogieman: I don't see that. It is a good strategy to use gun turrets, even in later game to spare building big walls and lasers. The gun turrets sit in the second line behind the lasers and kill every biter running through. This enables you to build much less laser turrets, which spares energy and some resources. With logistics, the filling of those turrets is easy, I use normally a chest to feed 10-20 turrets.

[xnmo]

ssilk while gun turrets may actually do more DPS when fully upgraded, it takes longer to set up properly and the reward is that you have to continually pump them full of ammo which can cost an awful lot of resources, while with lasers if you have a big enough energy network you don't have to spend another dime on them no matter how much they fire.

Maybe there should be a research or several to increase bullet range? So in the midgame the current dichotomy would stay the same, but later on gun become so much more effective especially against the new ranged enemies that it becomes actually worth it to use them over laser turrets. If this would be the case I would definitely consider using them over lasers, but currently they are so much less convenient to use that it is easier to just use lasers and build a bigger solar farm.

Or maybe they should fire slower and do more damage so they use up less ammo? Or just increase the number of rounds in a single magazine so ammo is cheaper.

[ssilk]

Well, in my opinion to stand against all the enemies, we have now and will get in future, we need a good mixture of defensive weapons. Lasers and gun turrets are just two of many.

[Boogieman14]

Lasers and gun turrets are just two of many.

Well, that's kinda exactly the problem. Gun turrets currently are not an attractive option. They have a shorter range and they require some form of logistics effort to keep them running. They may or may not do better damage than lasers (I've never done the maths on this), but that's pretty much a moot point because I haven't run into any situation where an exclusive use of lasers was insufficient. Right now, unless you're making the conscious choice to include gun turrets in your late game setup, they might as well not exist.

[ssilk]

I try to bring this back: Reducing it to the range is the wrong direction. Range is one parameter of many about that balancing.
In the moment, when an enemy is implemented, which is quite protected against laser fire you will understand.

I think the problem is, that is currently not clear, which weapon to use against which enemy, cause we have just two. We don't have the full picture, the direction. And I'm sure, the devs also don't have them in details. But what is really clear for me is, that it will be changed much.

[Boogieman14]

That's all fine and I realize Factorio is a game in active development. Right now however, the fact is that gun turrets are all but useless. Fiddling with range would give them a place in the current late game and actually give people those options you mentioned

[ssilk]

But I use them already in late game. Ok, we turn in circles, I think I stop here.

[Boogieman14]

But I use them already in late game.

Yes, because you choose to do so, there's no incentive

Ok, we turn in circles, I think I stop here.

I agree, I hope the devs will give this some consideration.

[fregate84]

I agree with this.

Dev can add some tech to upgrade the range for gun turret. So with invest gun can ha ve higt range and high power (but need a uge logical system to work)

[sinsiliux]

How about a late game upgrade to gun turret (double barrel turret): would take gun turret, requester chest and some processing units (or advanced circuits). Would have an increased range compared to normal turret, can shoot twice as fast and has requester chest inside it (to simplify logistics of refilling them).

[Bleda]

I also think it is obvious that the defense that needs a more complex setup (gun turrets) should have appropriate advantages over the defense that is very simple (lasers). The energy consumption of laser turrets is nothing compared to the resources and infrastructure needed to make ammo and move it to the turrets.

[MeduSalem]

I also think it is obvious that the defense that needs a more complex setup (gun turrets) should have appropriate advantages over the defense that is very simple (lasers). The energy consumption of laser turrets is nothing compared to the resources and infrastructure needed to make ammo and move it to the turrets.

Pretty much. I've suggested changes to the whole defense- and energy-production-system many times. But nothing has changed yet.


A) I suggested many times that the whole damage system needs to be changed in terms of more diversity in enemy strengths/weaknesses that actually force people to invent their own strategy of mixing up different turrets and whatnot... Coupled to that there should be also a change to the energy-production system because Solar Farms suffer the very same problems compared to Steam Power.

Which further lead me to B)

B) I already thought about suggesting to kill the way current turrets work in general and instead turn them into a modular setup. One places just a basic 2x2 tower that just works as a hardpoint and ammo-feeder to any turret one wishes to mount on top of the tower in a second step. Possible weapons that could be mounted to the tower would virtually range from Machine Guns, Lasers, Flamethrowers, Rocket Launchers, Grenade Launchers, Capsule Launchers and whatever... - All of them having their unique strength and weaknesses against certain enemy types. That way one wouldn't have to tear down the whole defense line anymore, just replace the mounted weapons with another different one or an upgraded version of the same. Basically that would turn the defense of Factorio into something one would find in a tower-defense game like Defense Grid, with many possible ways to achieve the same goal.

But to ultimatively kill the Gun/Laser Turret imbalance... ALL weapons should need ammo. ALL, including Laser Turrets. It's literally the ONLY fair way to balance them out and no matter what anybody says it's the root of the problem. Which leads me to C)

C) Another suggestion I made many times is that Laser Turrets should require ammo as well, which leads to Laser Turrets having an actual downside as well. I could perfectly live with Laser Turrets needing new batteries every now and then as ammo, because the steady charging/uncharging eventually wears on the battery. So a turret can fire like 50-100 shots or whatever until it needs a new battery (exact balancing would be up for discussion, but it should match the resource consumption of Gun Turrets). I would basically do the same to solar power accumulators as well, after a certain amount of charges/discharges they require a new battery as well, with exact balancing being also up for discussion to match the resource consumption of Steam Power.
This would eventually create a more complex setup to maintain the Laser Turrets as well as Solar Farms which currently have no real maintenance costs at all, which is in my opinion one of the worst balanced game aspects currently as it renders mid/endgame virtually way too easy and kills the need for expansion due to how one doesn't feel a need to do so anymore, which eventually leads to the game becoming boring because the hardest time a player faces is during setup of Blue Science, after which the complexity of the game will pretty much nullify due to Robots and tons of other research that makes life way too easy.

[katyal]

Just off the top of my head, I think part of the problem could be solved by playing around with target priorities and large biters. If large biters took lasers a while to kill and laser focused on large biters first then you would need a mix of turrets to stay safe.

[Marconos]

I have a base that is at rocket defense where I never researched lasers. All I have is gun turrets. The map is maxed out on biters size and quantity. I had no problem going through the map and the gun turrets eat the biters and spitters no problem.

Be aware the gun turret DO outrange the spitters, albeit not by as much as the lasers do. The biggest problem with the gun turrets is the ammo feed and resource usage. At one point I had 8 Assemblers 2 running full bore and I way just holding even on ammo.

I do agree a balance needs to be done but they are much better then people think, just very VERY VERY expensive compared to other options. If you want I can upload the save so you can see my setup.

[ssilk]

@MeduSalem: You describe the problem quite well, but unsure if it is really a problem and if, the solution you propose is just one option of many.
And you can be sure, that it will be fixed somehow. But I think/guess not in the next 3 months, cause it is not really a problem yet.