[MOD 0.18] KRASTORIO^2

Topics and discussion about specific mods
kevinma
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Re: [MOD 0.18] KRASTORIO^2

Post by kevinma »

If I want to play with space exploration, should I add AAI Industry? Is it compatible and well balanced?

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Re: [MOD 0.18] KRASTORIO^2

Post by ptx0 »

vvv444 wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:28 am
Linver wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:43 am
This is because loader is a "vertical" belt, and because belts don't consume power, actual cost is enough
So by design you prefer encouraging people to build like on the right instead as on the left?
1.jpg

Seems a bit strange to me, but ok...
because inserters chew up your CPU time and loaders do not.

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Re: [MOD 0.18] KRASTORIO^2

Post by Bilka »

ptx0 wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 4:06 pm
because inserters chew up your CPU time and loaders do not.
Source?
I'm an admin over at https://wiki.factorio.com. Feel free to contact me if there's anything wrong (or right) with it.

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Re: [MOD 0.18] KRASTORIO^2

Post by ptx0 »

Bilka wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 4:08 pm
ptx0 wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 4:06 pm
because inserters chew up your CPU time and loaders do not.
Source?
the save file i just tested with 25,000 miniloaders and 25,000 deadlock 1x1 compact loaders. empirical evidence. there is an additional performance regression that i've documented in the 0.18.9 release thread, so that inserters are about 5-10% slower (CPU time) on average since one of their optimisations was reworked.

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Re: [MOD 0.18] KRASTORIO^2

Post by Bilka »

ptx0 wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 4:09 pm
Bilka wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 4:08 pm
ptx0 wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 4:06 pm
because inserters chew up your CPU time and loaders do not.
Source?
the save file i just tested with 25,000 miniloaders and 25,000 deadlock 1x1 compact loaders. empirical evidence. there is an additional performance regression that i've documented in the 0.18.9 release thread, so that inserters are about 5-10% slower (CPU time) on average since one of their optimisations was reworked.
Please provide the saves and the benchmark results.
I'm an admin over at https://wiki.factorio.com. Feel free to contact me if there's anything wrong (or right) with it.

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Re: [MOD 0.18] KRASTORIO^2

Post by ptx0 »

Bilka wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 4:10 pm
ptx0 wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 4:09 pm
Bilka wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 4:08 pm
ptx0 wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 4:06 pm
because inserters chew up your CPU time and loaders do not.
Source?
the save file i just tested with 25,000 miniloaders and 25,000 deadlock 1x1 compact loaders. empirical evidence. there is an additional performance regression that i've documented in the 0.18.9 release thread, so that inserters are about 5-10% slower (CPU time) on average since one of their optimisations was reworked.
Please provide the saves and the benchmark results.
i already mentioned where you can find the one that indicates inserter performance is now *worse* than it was before.

the other discussions happened on discord.

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Re: [MOD 0.18] KRASTORIO^2

Post by Bilka »

i already mentioned where you can find the one that indicates inserter performance is now *worse* than it was before.
Please provide the saves and benchmark results for this:
ptx0 wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 4:11 pm
the save file i just tested with 25,000 miniloaders and 25,000 deadlock 1x1 compact loaders.
I'm an admin over at https://wiki.factorio.com. Feel free to contact me if there's anything wrong (or right) with it.

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Re: [MOD 0.18] KRASTORIO^2

Post by ptx0 »

Bilka wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 4:13 pm
i already mentioned where you can find the one that indicates inserter performance is now *worse* than it was before.
Please provide the saves and benchmark results for this:
ptx0 wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 4:11 pm
the save file i just tested with 25,000 miniloaders and 25,000 deadlock 1x1 compact loaders.
it's a 74MiB save, my connection is 67KiB/s, I cannot upload it for others, but I'm sure you can easily reproduce the results on Windows.

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Re: [MOD 0.18] KRASTORIO^2

Post by ptx0 »

ptx0 wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 4:14 pm
Bilka wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 4:13 pm
i already mentioned where you can find the one that indicates inserter performance is now *worse* than it was before.
Please provide the saves and benchmark results for this:
ptx0 wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 4:11 pm
the save file i just tested with 25,000 miniloaders and 25,000 deadlock 1x1 compact loaders.
it's a 74MiB save, my connection is 67KiB/s, I cannot upload it for others, but I'm sure you can easily reproduce the results on Windows.
loaders CPU usages with 16,000 loaders butt-to-butt pulling from infinity chest and dumping into infinity chest:

Code: Select all

     9.57%  factorio          [.] std::__introsort_loop<ItemStack*, long, __gnu_cxx::__ops::_Iter_comp_iter<bool (*)(ItemStack const&, ItemStack const&)> >
     9.04%  factorio          [.] ItemStack::swapWithSilent
     6.68%  factorio          [.] ItemStack::clear
     5.29%  factorio          [.] TransportLineManager::update
     5.01%  factorio          [.] InventoryWithBar::sort
     4.97%  factorio          [.] ItemStack::swapWith
     4.80%  factorio          [.] InfinityInventorySettings::update
     3.96%  factorio          [.] Chunk::updateEntities
     3.43%  factorio          [.] std::__unguarded_linear_insert<ItemStack*, __gnu_cxx::__ops::_Val_comp_iter<bool (*)(ItemStack const&, ItemStack const&)> >
     3.43%  factorio          [.] ItemStack::sumCounts
     2.53%  factorio          [.] Loader::tryToDropToContainer
     2.47%  factorio          [.] Inventory::Inventory
     2.36%  factorio          [.] UpdatableEntity::setActive
     2.31%  factorio          [.] Loader::tryToGrabFromContainer
     1.95%  factorio          [.] Inventory::transferToNonEmptySlots
     1.90%  factorio          [.] Inventory::transfer
     1.88%  factorio          [.] ItemStack::defaultComparator
     1.52%  factorio          [.] non-virtual thunk to InfinityContainer::postTransferHook(NotificationData const&)
     1.45%  factorio          [.] std::default_delete<ItemStack []>::operator()<ItemStack>
     1.41%  factorio          [.] Inventory::transferToPrioritySlots
     1.36%  factorio          [.] propagatemark
     1.31%  factorio          [.] Loader::update
     1.11%  factorio          [.] sweeplist
     1.11%  factorio          [.] TransportLine::tryToInsert
     0.97%  factorio          [.] ItemStack::transferToPrioritySlots
     0.75%  factorio          [.] ItemFrequencyCounter::setup

and inserters:

Code: Select all

     8.42%  factorio          [.] Inserter::moveHandTo
     7.37%  factorio          [.] propagatemark
     6.48%  factorio          [.] sweeplist
     5.10%  factorio          [.] Inserter::getPickupTarget
     4.52%  factorio          [.] Chunk::updateEntities
     4.16%  factorio          [.] Inserter::selectBeltItem
     3.29%  factorio          [.] Inserter::BeltItemPickupTarget::checkValidityAndClearIfNotValid
     2.72%  factorio          [.] std::__introsort_loop<ItemStack*, long, __gnu_cxx::__ops::_Iter_comp_iter<bool (*)(ItemStack const&, ItemStack const&)> >
     2.65%  factorio          [.] singlestep
     2.34%  factorio          [.] ItemStack::swapWithSilent
     2.06%  factorio          [.] ElectricSubNetwork::useDemand
     1.75%  factorio          [.] ItemStack::clear
     1.75%  factorio          [.] crc32
     1.65%  factorio          [.] Math::sincosUnsafe
     1.64%  factorio          [.] ItemStack::swapWith
     1.54%  factorio          [.] Math::satan
     1.44%  factorio          [.] InfinityInventorySettings::update
     1.31%  factorio          [.] InventoryWithBar::sort

look at the proportion of time spent by both - infinity chest is almost 5% of CPU time spent by loaders, but it's only 2% of the time spent with inserters. that is because it is a lot more inserter-specific logic running and for loaders, it's the inventory transfers that suck - but really, inserters do this, AND MORE.

inserters must:

1. locate pickup spot

2. check if spot pickup location is still valid

3. move to spot, re-validate repeatedly

4. update electric use info

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Re: [MOD 0.18] KRASTORIO^2

Post by ptx0 »

i should note that 16k stack inserters are nowhere near the amount required to actually compete with 16,000 loaders, as well.

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Re: [MOD 0.18] KRASTORIO^2

Post by Extramsg »

When playing with aai industry, the explosion at the start of the game destroys all of the krastorio buildings.

Is there a fix for this?

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Re: [MOD 0.18] KRASTORIO^2

Post by toddchitt »

How does one harvest the biomass/creep that is left over under biter nests? standard mining drills don't work. You can't mine it by hand. Is there some special thing you need?

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Re: [MOD 0.18] KRASTORIO^2

Post by ptx0 »

Extramsg wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 5:59 pm
When playing with aai industry, the explosion at the start of the game destroys all of the krastorio buildings.

Is there a fix for this?
that is a mod setting for AAI Industry you can disable.

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Re: [MOD 0.18] KRASTORIO^2

Post by alienwombat »

toddchitt wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:11 pm
How does one harvest the biomass/creep that is left over under biter nests? standard mining drills don't work. You can't mine it by hand. Is there some special thing you need?
The ingame Wiki explains this in the "Creep" section. You have to craft the "Creep collector" item. Then drag it over the creep to mark it for collection.

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Re: [MOD 0.18] KRASTORIO^2

Post by doc776@gmail.com »

really enjoying this, it's not completely different from vanilla like bobangels but feels completely new and exciting!

Took a quick look at post rocket launch science before sleep and I gotta ask: is there no continues research to dump the post rocket research cards after unlocking the last building?

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Re: [MOD 0.18] KRASTORIO^2

Post by Linver »

doc776@gmail.com wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:38 am
really enjoying this, it's not completely different from vanilla like bobangels but feels completely new and exciting!

Took a quick look at post rocket launch science before sleep and I gotta ask: is there no continues research to dump the post rocket research cards after unlocking the last building?
Not for now, our vision of the mod is something like "be a Factorio DLC", instead destory it, making it unplayable reserved to veteran player, we expand it without remove the all vanilla from the players feeling (how I can see really, very criticized by the community). For that, we have decided to leave the "infinity" techs in the post rocket, changing the name of space science pack in "optimization tech card" because is used to optimization technologies.

Also I think that we will never add new "infinity" techs because Factiorio don't give us enough tool to define inside the game engine new kind of bonuses for technologies.

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Re: [MOD 0.18] KRASTORIO^2

Post by Linver »

Bilka wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 4:13 pm
i already mentioned where you can find the one that indicates inserter performance is now *worse* than it was before.
Please provide the saves and benchmark results for this:
ptx0 wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 4:11 pm
the save file i just tested with 25,000 miniloaders and 25,000 deadlock 1x1 compact loaders.
Don't seems strange to me, don't thinking about the entities prototype, one miniloader is composed by something like 3 entities, so is like say that 75'000 entities are slower than 25'000, make sense.

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Re: [MOD 0.18] KRASTORIO^2

Post by doc776@gmail.com »

Linver wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 7:17 am
doc776@gmail.com wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:38 am
really enjoying this, it's not completely different from vanilla like bobangels but feels completely new and exciting!

Took a quick look at post rocket launch science before sleep and I gotta ask: is there no continues research to dump the post rocket research cards after unlocking the last building?
Not for now, our vision of the mod is something like "be a Factorio DLC", instead destory it, making it unplayable reserved to veteran player, we expand it without remove the all vanilla from the players feeling (how I can see really, very criticized by the community). For that, we have decided to leave the "infinity" techs in the post rocket, changing the name of space science pack in "optimization tech card" because is used to optimization technologies.

Also I think that we will never add new "infinity" techs because Factiorio don't give us enough tool to define inside the game engine new kind of bonuses for technologies.
All good and well. I was hoping to see the advanced, matter, singularity tech cards be part of the existing infinity research so that the infrastructure made for those two don't go to waste after obtaining the intergalactic tranceiver. since infini research is mostly for those going big, wouldent be a problem as an option ya?

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Re: [MOD 0.18] KRASTORIO^2

Post by Linver »

doc776@gmail.com wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 7:40 am
All good and well. I was hoping to see the advanced, matter, singularity tech cards be part of the existing infinity research so that the infrastructure made for those two don't go to waste after obtaining the intergalactic tranceiver. since infini research is mostly for those going big, wouldent be a problem as an option ya?
I'm not sure to have understand the question. The intergalactic transceiver(IT) don't block the game, as vanilla is possible continue after winning, and infinity techs don't help much to achieve victory, infinity techs take time, because u have anyway to unlock the IT and this take time too, reached IT tech the tools provided by the mod is enough to win with a bit of patient and setting, like was for rocket.

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Re: [MOD 0.18] KRASTORIO^2

Post by kingarthur »

Linver wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 7:51 am
doc776@gmail.com wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 7:40 am
All good and well. I was hoping to see the advanced, matter, singularity tech cards be part of the existing infinity research so that the infrastructure made for those two don't go to waste after obtaining the intergalactic tranceiver. since infini research is mostly for those going big, wouldent be a problem as an option ya?
I'm not sure to have understand the question. The intergalactic transceiver(IT) don't block the game, as vanilla is possible continue after winning, and infinity techs don't help much to achieve victory, infinity techs take time, because u have anyway to unlock the IT and this take time too, reached IT tech the tools provided by the mod is enough to win with a bit of patient and setting, like was for rocket.
if im understanding what hes saying those tech cards have a limited number of techs they can unlock so once all the techs are researched the tech cards are useless. hes asking for them to be added to some of the already available infinite techs so that they are still needed in some fashion forever

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