Development and Discussion

Infinite Ores, Refining, Ore Processing ...

Moderator: Arch666Angel

evandy
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 211
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:54 am
Contact:

Re: Development and Discussion

Post by evandy »

If we are adding platinum wire into the circuit chain, then the question becomes... is there anything else that should get some platinum in the recipes?

With Platinum wire in the multi layer logic boards, it's implicitly added to Tier 4 Robots as well, so that part is covered.
And Platinum Ore is part of Yellow Metal Catalyst
Where else should it go?

Research suggests that use in catalysts and electronics is the main use of platinum (other than jewelry) so maybe this is enough already...

zamolxis
Manual Inserter
Manual Inserter
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:17 pm
Contact:

Re: Development and Discussion

Post by zamolxis »

As a small parenthesis in the platinum discussion, is there any fix for the catch-22 going on with solder and Angel Industries?
I started a new game after the latest update with all Bobs mods except greenhouses and all Angel mods, including Industries with the construction blocks overhaul. I got close to red science yesterday and I noticed that making red science requires red circuits which require solder for the red circuit components. The only way to make solder I found seems to be via the Solder Smelting tech, which requires red science.

Is there something I'm missing?

I've looked at the github repo and can't see any recent fixes related to that. Are there any planned or are there any workarounds? If not, I can try to have a look into fixing this tonight and maybe sending you a pull request on the repo. I haven't done any modding or LUA but browsing the code it all seems fairly easy to understand.

danyax
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:29 am
Contact:

Re: Development and Discussion

Post by danyax »

One concern over silver. It is used for green catalist, which used for methanol production - a good way to get plastic while not having blue tech science. But the only way to get silver is through crotinium chunks sorting and you get minuscule amount of silver - one out 9 on expensive recipes. So I ended up with huge chunks production (

Is this intended? Are we expected to get plastics just from naphta while still on green tech?

evandy
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 211
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:54 am
Contact:

Re: Development and Discussion

Post by evandy »

danyax wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:55 pm
One concern over silver. It is used for green catalist, which used for methanol production - a good way to get plastic while not having blue tech science. But the only way to get silver is through crotinium chunks sorting and you get minuscule amount of silver - one out 9 on expensive recipes. So I ended up with huge chunks production (

Is this intended? Are we expected to get plastics just from naphta while still on green tech?
I have always considered the silver from crotinnium chunks as a bootstrap to chemical science, and I beeline straight to the catalyst sorting recipes from there. Angels has a bunch of stuff where you get it messily at first and then more efficiently with tech so it never bothered me. Not sure what the maintainers think though.

User avatar
lovely_santa
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 371
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:41 pm
Contact:

Re: Development and Discussion

Post by lovely_santa »

zamolxis wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:58 pm
As a small parenthesis in the platinum discussion, is there any fix for the catch-22 going on with solder and Angel Industries?
I started a new game after the latest update with all Bobs mods except greenhouses and all Angel mods, including Industries with the construction blocks overhaul. I got close to red science yesterday and I noticed that making red science requires red circuits which require solder for the red circuit components. The only way to make solder I found seems to be via the Solder Smelting tech, which requires red science.

Is there something I'm missing?

I've looked at the github repo and can't see any recent fixes related to that. Are there any planned or are there any workarounds? If not, I can try to have a look into fixing this tonight and maybe sending you a pull request on the repo. I haven't done any modding or LUA but browsing the code it all seems fairly easy to understand.
Yes it is broken as of now. I am working on the components as we speak, I want them fully integerated for the next release. I already solved the solder issue in that branch, the solder mix recipe should unlock with gray tech, and be a prerequisite for red circuits. If you want to fix this, the easiest way is to just research that technology for now (it will disable your achievements) by entering this command:

Code: Select all

/c game.player.force.technologies["angels-solder-smelting-basic"].researched = true
I am working on getting all blocks unlocked by technology, working my way through the tree to see what needs to unlock where. I won't have all the recipes fixed (because I am human and overlook stuff). But at least there is a full attempt to get them integrated.
evandy wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 12:45 pm
If we are adding platinum wire into the circuit chain, then the question becomes... is there anything else that should get some platinum in the recipes?

With Platinum wire in the multi layer logic boards, it's implicitly added to Tier 4 Robots as well, so that part is covered.
And Platinum Ore is part of Yellow Metal Catalyst
Where else should it go?

Research suggests that use in catalysts and electronics is the main use of platinum (other than jewelry) so maybe this is enough already...
The progression chain for circuits will look like this: copper -> tin -> silver -> gold -> platinum. We could swap out silver and gold, as it sounds more logical that a transformer uses silver and not gold (since it's a cheaper conductor, and gold for chips is also reasonable). The only reason I am maybe wanting to do this change is because it was requested above. Which leads to my next answer:
danyax wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:55 pm
One concern over silver. It is used for green catalist, which used for methanol production - a good way to get plastic while not having blue tech science. But the only way to get silver is through crotinium chunks sorting and you get minuscule amount of silver - one out 9 on expensive recipes. So I ended up with huge chunks production (

Is this intended? Are we expected to get plastics just from naphta while still on green tech?
As mentioned in the first reply, I am working my way through the components, this will primarily dictate the order of the ores.

I was (initially) thinking about swapping silver sorting with zinc sorting, as you don't realy need silver sorting that early, which would enable you to get it right after hydro refining. However, on the other hand I am not sure that I want to do this yet because there is an alternative way with bio plastic instead? I didn't test this out yet, but how good of an alternative do you think this is for green science (if at all)?
evandy wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 3:41 pm
...

I have always considered the silver from crotinnium chunks as a bootstrap to chemical science, and I beeline straight to the catalyst sorting recipes from there. Angels has a bunch of stuff where you get it messily at first and then more efficiently with tech so it never bothered me. Not sure what the maintainers think though.
As I mentioned before, I really like the idea of hacking an early (messy) way in at first, as long as you can manage to get rid of the byproducts it generated later on:
lovely_santa wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:41 pm
(...) but I think that's part of early game, as you cannot have the best right away. (...)
You can find all my mods on the mod portal. Also helping on Arch666Angel's mods.
Image

danyax
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:29 am
Contact:

Re: Development and Discussion

Post by danyax »

evandy wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 3:41 pm

I have always considered the silver from crotinnium chunks as a bootstrap to chemical science, and I beeline straight to the catalyst sorting recipes from there. Angels has a bunch of stuff where you get it messily at first and then more efficiently with tech so it never bothered me. Not sure what the maintainers think though.
Bio way had terrible, close to impossible rate of production last time I checked it for plastic and resin.


Silver is needed for Urea and very useful for catalytic methanol. If you need mass produce red circuits, the only practical way remaining on green tech is oil processing. Not the roadblock, but for some reason oil chain is substantially less productive then plastic from coal using catalytic methanol. And you needs metric ton of plastic for blue science pack.

As an option silver may be added as sorting result for other types of chunks. Lets wait for final ores charts to get better overall picture. Another option would be increasing oil to plastic productivity a bit or using red catalyst for methanol, keeping green one for urea

evandy
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 211
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:54 am
Contact:

Re: Development and Discussion

Post by evandy »

lovely_santa wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:16 pm
The progression chain for circuits will look like this: copper -> tin -> silver -> gold -> platinum. We could swap out silver and gold, as it sounds more logical that a transformer uses silver and not gold (since it's a cheaper conductor, and gold for chips is also reasonable). The only reason I am maybe wanting to do this change is because it was requested above. Which leads to my next answer:
Hrrm? Did you mean Silicon instead of silver there? copper -> tin -> silicon -> gold -> platinum is what I thought... The only silver is the catalyst to make plastic. Am I missing something here? The Electronic Circuit Board recipe feels fine to me without adding silver to it...
lovely_santa wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:16 pm
As mentioned in the first reply, I am working my way through the components, this will primarily dictate the order of the ores.

I was (initially) thinking about swapping silver sorting with zinc sorting, as you don't realy need silver sorting that early, which would enable you to get it right after hydro refining. However, on the other hand I am not sure that I want to do this yet because there is an alternative way with bio plastic instead? I didn't test this out yet, but how good of an alternative do you think this is for green science (if at all)?
As someone else mentioned, quantities from bio plastic are currently very small. Does not seem viable without lots of modules unless you tweak the recipe outputs. I like getting the small amount of silver for catalysts to make Methanol for Plastic 1 so I wouldn't personally advocate for losing it from chunk sorting. You can already get Zinc from Jivolite and Bobmonium chunks, not to mention that you can catalyst-sort for Zinc with chunks so it is really wide open once you have floatation. The ONLY source of silver until you get crystallization is from mixed chunk sorting, so taking it away completely removes green catalysts until much later. You could move the Silver onto one of the other chunks if you want, but don't just kill it (especially for Zinc).

Sounds like the components are going to change a LOT of things, I am both curious and terrified. Can't wait to see what you come up with though, from what I've seen in our discussions you are trying to focus on balance and progression in a sane way, so thanks for that.

danyax
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:29 am
Contact:

Re: Development and Discussion

Post by danyax »

evandy wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 2:02 am
You can already get Zinc from Jivolite and Bobmonium chunks, not to mention that you can catalyst-sort for Zinc with chunks so it is really wide open once you have floatation.
And don't forget that you need way less zinc than aluminium because zinc is used as alloy (Brass), so when you use just direct sorting you typically get more zinc then needed and real factor is aluminium production. I would leave zinc on one type of chunks and add silver for another type of chunks, so 2 types of chunks have aluminium, 2 silver and one zinc. And, sorry for repeating this, silver through plastic is used in science packs, while neither aluminium nor brass are used. So when playing with high science cost multiplier, only silver really matters.

User avatar
lovely_santa
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 371
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:41 pm
Contact:

Re: Development and Discussion

Post by lovely_santa »

evandy wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 2:02 am
lovely_santa wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:16 pm
The progression chain for circuits will look like this: copper -> tin -> silver -> gold -> platinum. We could swap out silver and gold, as it sounds more logical that a transformer uses silver and not gold (since it's a cheaper conductor, and gold for chips is also reasonable). The only reason I am maybe wanting to do this change is because it was requested above. Which leads to my next answer:
Hrrm? Did you mean Silicon instead of silver there? copper -> tin -> silicon -> gold -> platinum is what I thought... The only silver is the catalyst to make plastic. Am I missing something here? The Electronic Circuit Board recipe feels fine to me without adding silver to it...
I was talking about the angels boards. For reference I'll put them here:
Untitled.png
Untitled.png (548.99 KiB) Viewed 702 times
The silicon is used for circuit components (meaning for orange and yellow loaded circuits)
evandy wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 2:02 am
lovely_santa wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:16 pm
As mentioned in the first reply, I am working my way through the components, this will primarily dictate the order of the ores.

I was (initially) thinking about swapping silver sorting with zinc sorting, as you don't realy need silver sorting that early, which would enable you to get it right after hydro refining. However, on the other hand I am not sure that I want to do this yet because there is an alternative way with bio plastic instead? I didn't test this out yet, but how good of an alternative do you think this is for green science (if at all)?
As someone else mentioned, quantities from bio plastic are currently very small. Does not seem viable without lots of modules unless you tweak the recipe outputs. I like getting the small amount of silver for catalysts to make Methanol for Plastic 1 so I wouldn't personally advocate for losing it from chunk sorting. You can already get Zinc from Jivolite and Bobmonium chunks, not to mention that you can catalyst-sort for Zinc with chunks so it is really wide open once you have floatation. The ONLY source of silver until you get crystallization is from mixed chunk sorting, so taking it away completely removes green catalysts until much later. You could move the Silver onto one of the other chunks if you want, but don't just kill it (especially for Zinc).
I think you misunderstood, I was thinking of delaying zinc ore (from crystal catalyst chunk sorting) and swich it out with silver (hybrid catalyst crystal sorting), meaning you would get silver ore quite a bit earlier.
Untitled2.png
Untitled2.png (246.07 KiB) Viewed 702 times
evandy wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 2:02 am
Sounds like the components are going to change a LOT of things, I am both curious and terrified. Can't wait to see what you come up with though, from what I've seen in our discussions you are trying to focus on balance and progression in a sane way, so thanks for that.
The components themselves should only urge you to automate the buildings (instead of handcrafting them all). On progression it would only change (read as extend) vanilla circuits, similar to bob mods. The bigger change will be science, which will alter the science packs, which I have to code already to some extend to get the components to work (unlocking components with tech). The focus in the next update will be about the components, the science tiers they require to unlock, making sure you can build everything when you need it.
danyax wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:42 pm
evandy wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 2:02 am
You can already get Zinc from Jivolite and Bobmonium chunks, not to mention that you can catalyst-sort for Zinc with chunks so it is really wide open once you have floatation.
And don't forget that you need way less zinc than aluminium because zinc is used as alloy (Brass), so when you use just direct sorting you typically get more zinc then needed and real factor is aluminium production. I would leave zinc on one type of chunks and add silver for another type of chunks, so 2 types of chunks have aluminium, 2 silver and one zinc. And, sorry for repeating this, silver through plastic is used in science packs, while neither aluminium nor brass are used. So when playing with high science cost multiplier, only silver really matters.
Components will use (mainly) iron, steel, aluminium, titanium and tungsten, so that will be fixed. For this reason, I'm not so sure if the circuits (see image) should use ferrous or cupric fluid, as you'll use quite a bit of iron already for components...
You can find all my mods on the mod portal. Also helping on Arch666Angel's mods.
Image

danyax
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:29 am
Contact:

Re: Development and Discussion

Post by danyax »

Proposed circuits recipes look very simple compared to Bobs... Removing fluid makes them even simple. Ferrous solution uses small amount of iron ore, so it is mostly about complexity, not amount of iron ore.

Don't forget that Bobs circuits production times increases each level, which gives good incentive to research better machines and better logistics.

Swapping silver and zinc looks ok, provided zinc will be available by direct sorting chunks.

danyax
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:29 am
Contact:

Re: Development and Discussion

Post by danyax »

Will Bobs circuits be supported when playing with Angel component and tech? It is a pity to loose ability to have Bob electronics if Angel circuit will be that easy.

User avatar
lovely_santa
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 371
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:41 pm
Contact:

Re: Development and Discussion

Post by lovely_santa »

danyax wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 3:36 pm
Will Bobs circuits be supported when playing with Angel component and tech? It is a pity to loose ability to have Bob electronics if Angel circuit will be that easy.
Keep in mind that the circuits themselves still require an extra step, each circuit requiring more components:
Untitled2.png
Untitled2.png (226.87 KiB) Viewed 682 times
I do plan on changing the crafting times, but that's details at this point. And yes, it's a small amount of iron or copper ore, where I am unsure at this point if I would use copper or iron..

About bobs mods, I am still unsure if I just want to change the ingredients of the components or add extra ingredients to the boards. I am first focussing on angels only anyway. I am debating on increasing the amount of solder / board tho (so it is 1 solder / component, ending up with 5 solder in the yellow circuit).
You can find all my mods on the mod portal. Also helping on Arch666Angel's mods.
Image

evandy
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 211
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:54 am
Contact:

Re: Development and Discussion

Post by evandy »

lovely_santa wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 3:45 pm
danyax wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 3:36 pm
Will Bobs circuits be supported when playing with Angel component and tech? It is a pity to loose ability to have Bob electronics if Angel circuit will be that easy.
Keep in mind that the circuits themselves still require an extra step, each circuit requiring more components:

I do plan on changing the crafting times, but that's details at this point. And yes, it's a small amount of iron or copper ore, where I am unsure at this point if I would use copper or iron..

About bobs mods, I am still unsure if I just want to change the ingredients of the components or add extra ingredients to the boards. I am first focussing on angels only anyway. I am debating on increasing the amount of solder / board tho (so it is 1 solder / component, ending up with 5 solder in the yellow circuit).
I would consider adding to bobs existing boards and recipes personally, so it is more extendable given the circuit uses in the robot boards and modules too.

Rather than simply adding more solder, why not start requiring solder coils (and wire coils) directly, as the high tier manufacturing processes should need more sophisticated ingredients too.

Volumes of transistors, resistors, etc should also increase at higher tiers, not just the new ingredients. Needing to get 15 transistors into circuit boards outstripping belt capacity and encouraging direct insertion is one of the things I really like about bobs.

evandy
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 211
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:54 am
Contact:

Re: Development and Discussion

Post by evandy »

lovely_santa wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 2:29 pm

I was talking about the angels boards. For reference I'll put them here:
Untitled.png
Just a heads up, there is a fairly standard color progression based on belts and assembly machines that factorio follows. Bobs has helped to make it more consistent, and shiny angels adjusts some of angels buildings to help standardize things too. The color progression you show here seems out of left field compared to everything else. I would consider swapping around to follow the standard:

(Gray) —> yellow —> red —> blue —> purple —> green.

It seems really jarring to have yellow at the highest tier.

shuzen
Burner Inserter
Burner Inserter
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu May 10, 2018 12:28 pm
Contact:

Re: Development and Discussion

Post by shuzen »

evandy wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:40 pm
[..]I would consider swapping around to follow the standard:

(Gray) —> yellow —> red —> blue —> purple —> green.

It seems really jarring to have yellow at the highest tier.
+1

(And back to lurking.)

zamolxis
Manual Inserter
Manual Inserter
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:17 pm
Contact:

Re: Development and Discussion

Post by zamolxis »

An update on the solder issue, for people who don't want to do console commands or wait.
Instead of above mentioned instant research console command, I have edited the angelsindustries.zip\prototypes\overrides\angels-tech-base.lua file to include these two lines:

pack_replace("angels-solder-smelting-basic", "red", "grey")
...later on in the file:
core_replace("angels-solder-smelting-basic", "processing", "basic")

I know, that's not the right place to add them since they refer to the base game but I wanted to a quick hack to continue playing.

This seems to have done the trick in my current run, I can research solder smelting normally and proceed.
Looking forward to the proper fix on the next update.

BlueMarkers
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 23
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:24 pm
Contact:

Re: Development and Discussion

Post by BlueMarkers »

Hey all, I apologize if I'm way behind on development because I've taken a short break and am just coming back.

Has there been a recent change with regards to module production? It looks like all forms of modules now require "Crystal Shards" of some sort, which at this point are only possible to produce through the biter cultivation process. Is this intended, or should there be other methods of module production that do not require bio-processing?

User avatar
lovely_santa
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 371
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:41 pm
Contact:

Re: Development and Discussion

Post by lovely_santa »

shuzen wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:50 pm
evandy wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:40 pm
[..]I would consider swapping around to follow the standard:

(Gray) —> yellow —> red —> blue —> purple —> green.

It seems really jarring to have yellow at the highest tier.
+1

(And back to lurking.)
That's something bob is doing indeed, angel still only does its tiers based on base game (adding orange in the middle). I can swap graphics over depending on bob settings, but I'm not doing it for now since it affects more than only the circuit graphics.
BlueMarkers wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:48 pm
Hey all, I apologize if I'm way behind on development because I've taken a short break and am just coming back.

Has there been a recent change with regards to module production? It looks like all forms of modules now require "Crystal Shards" of some sort, which at this point are only possible to produce through the biter cultivation process. Is this intended, or should there be other methods of module production that do not require bio-processing?
This is intended, but it just released in 0.18, so it might need some balancing or small tweaks for ratios, I am open for feedback on that. The design criteria were to allow production of 1 shard without having other shards as byproduct, and not holding up your game due to insufficient access to materials. Angel mentioned something about using them as 'special modules' for labs only as well, but there is nothing concrete there yet.
You can find all my mods on the mod portal. Also helping on Arch666Angel's mods.
Image

zamolxis
Manual Inserter
Manual Inserter
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:17 pm
Contact:

Re: Development and Discussion

Post by zamolxis »

Another piece of feedback. Please let me know if these are not useful, I'll stop.

I'm currently researching specialist labs and this can only be done in the tech archive apparently. You get one tech archive at start and cannot craft others. FNEI doesn't tell me anything about its crafting or usage.
This tech require 64 gray and red analyzers on normal and each round takes 60 seconds. This is 1 hour of research that cannot be reduced by building more labs.
I'm playing with 10x science multiplier so this tech will take over 10 hours.

That does not seem balanced. It should be possible to scale up research by building more lab buildings. The game would otherwise be just a boring slog.

Trainwreck
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 108
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:17 am
Contact:

Re: Development and Discussion

Post by Trainwreck »

I just noticed that chrome plates may not be enabled by angels smelting, depending on which other mods are loaded.
Can I add something like:

Code: Select all

angelsmods.trigger.smelting_products["chrome"].plate = true
to my mods (CircuitProcessing uses chrome plates) and expect it to keep working for future updates?

Post Reply

Return to “Angels Mods”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users