Approach with pure PyMods?

[evopwr]

Hi guys,
Looking for advice from people who have used a Rail approach (LTN/TSM) to PyMods,

I've been working on a bootstrap base for PyMods (Coal, Fusion, HighTech, RawOres, and Industry) for the last 2 weeks.
This whole time i've been trying to envision, and plan, for how I want to move forward with my end-design.
Ideally I was thinking a train "zone" design, using LTN or TSM, rather than a "belt bus" approach.
But i'm starting to see a nightmare on the horizon...

If I look at something as simple as a Copper Smelting Zone, based on the chart, I would need the following inputs to that zone:
Copper-Ore
Water (although I'm using the WaterFill mod, so ignore this one)
Salt
Acid-Solvent
Grease
Sodium-Sulfate
Diesel
Pressured Air
Lime
Syn Gas
Borax
Oxygen
Sand-Casting

So if I use LTN or TSM, which would be ideally one Requester station per resource, that I can see my base is going to end up being mostly train lines, and has started to make me wonder if its a bad idea?

The above Copper example isn't as bad as it looks, as I am extracting Water from the ground (WaterFill mod), Pressured Air can be made within the zone, as can Lime, and Oxygen (and dumping the Hydrogen). But there are more complicated examples, like Aluminium has about 17 inputs.

Does anyone have any advice?
Has anyone gone down this path? What worked and what didnt?

Thanks in advance

[Cardoyle]

Hi

I have just recently started also(over 200 hours and still on red/green science, working towards circuit 2). As i progressed i realised that the "Main Bus" method just wasnt going to work as far to many products/buildings. I got the very 1st circuits automated(2/second ) and my base more than doubled in size.

The bus i had tho came in handy as i use it to automate the building of buildings
I have got a nice robot network setup(around 1500) using the basic pynabots to help as you need lots and lots of buildings, so having a good stack of on hand helps keep the game flowing

I used LTN for a seablock run so decided to use TSM, only got a few outposts set up so far. The train depots i use a combination of wharehouse and loaders(mini loaders not loader redux). 1 requester station i have it set up so it can output 6 items. Seems to be working so far. Just remember to limit the cargo wagon size as a lot of things stack in higher amounts, ore for example is 500 instead of 50 so one full wagon would be like 10 vanilla wagons, increasing loading times considerably.

I also try to build as much materials on site, its surprising how many things can be built from nothing. Need that salt mine to have some fuel...easy just convert water->fawugae->coal->coke, 4 little buildings(i use the stone well mod instead of water fill) 1less input to worry about.

I cant really comment on anything more advance as still progressing but will let you know if any problems arise

[evopwr]

I used LTN for a seablock run so decided to use TSM, only got a few outposts set up so far. The train depots i use a combination of wharehouse and loaders(mini loaders not loader redux). 1 requester station i have it set up so it can output 6 items. Seems to be working so far. Just remember to limit the cargo wagon size as a lot of things stack in higher amounts, ore for example is 500 instead of 50 so one full wagon would be like 10 vanilla wagons, increasing loading times considerably.

Thanks Cardoyle,
I too am looking at TSM this time around, and I did contemplate whether I could use 1 requester for multiple items - but I wondered if I was just going to get myself in to difficulty, or some really complex circuitry and filter inserters everywhere. Wasnt sure if it was going to prove to be too much hassle for what it was worth, and instead stick to multiple train stops instead of using 1. Was going to experiment tonight, but sounds like your a step ahead of me.

So how do you do it?
1 train requester stop, but with multiple requesters at that stop, one for each input item? (perhaps a max of 4-6 per stop?)
And then the trains all stop at the same place, so you've have to use filter inserters to direct items from cargo wagon on to the right belt?
Or do you go via a warehouse first, containing all items, and then use filter inserters off the warehouse?

How do you fit fluids/gases in to that approach?
But how do you have multiple pumps at the same train stop? I assume you'd have to have multiple train stops, one per fluid/gas, or start getting tricky with circuitry based on Train ID? (and TSM would just make that even more complicated?)

[TwentyEighty]

I'm in the middle of building a pure PyMods train base. I got as far as circuit1 with just belts and gave up after planning circuit2. I'm using LTN and a train grid design. I'm only now re-automating circuit1 after 90 hrs, because I've spent so much time on the base infrastructure and had to re-organize once already. For example, I don't have a circuit1 block or even a fiberboard block. I have a freaking sodium sulfate block! (I'm sure something else will go in there as well, HCl maybe? I have that next to oxygen/hydrogren right now) But sodium sulfate itself is used in over a dozen recipes it really deserves its own block. Part of the fun for me is making an efficient factory, and I don't like wasting, burning, venting stuff except as a stopgap. I get the sense pyanodon doesn't either because he's so quick to add recipes that allow you to use all waste products. Just this last week he added Sodium Hydroxide -> Sodium Sulfate, and Waste Water -> Urea.

Anyway, I have some thoughts on this

1. If using LTN, you should either have some experience with it already or be ready to sink like 20 hrs into making mistakes with it at first. I don't know anything about TSM.
2. My design uses 12 stations per grid block. Actually each grid has room for 12 stations below it, and 12 stations above it, but it shares that space with the adjacent grid. So ~12 station spaces per block. I generally use the bottom stations as input and the top stations as output. I wouldn't recommend fewer than this. My first design used like 7 stations per grid block and I got frustrated and redesigned everything.
3. I'm using 4x6 chunk sized grid blocks. These huge buildings need a lot of space, and that's the space that happened to fit in my monitor at min zoom.
4. I realize that this isn't enough stations for e.g. full chain smelting. However, it's enough stations for tier 2 smelting for sure. Once I get higher level pynobots and logistical warehouses and stuff I'll be able to use universal requester designs more easily.
5. You can definitely use at least 2 materials per stations if you want using circuits, and it's not that difficult. I moved away from that design because my blueprint books were getting too large. Also, stack inserters are tier 3 which is a monumental effort, so using only fast inserters with no bonus means you'd better have both sides of the train unloading. Fluids are more doable, but I'm sticking to 1 per station until I need to do otherwise.
6. It's probably easier in some cases to make stuff on site like coal, etc. But it's more fun in my opinion to have an efficient factory that makes use of all byproducts. Also, once you have a couple stations providing coke, etc. it's super easy to build a new requester station and instantly have fuel available.
7. Coal dust seems unlimited until you try to use it as fuel for all your smelting. Then you run out
8. I'm a dirty cheater. At least in a few areas. I gave myself LTN stations (requires circuit2, no way) fluid wagons (stainless steel, bad design decision IMO to require this for fluid wagons) and I finally deleted my dude running around and went into god mode. So much more fun for this type of challenge, I didn't like the walking/train riding simulator. I've considered cheating myself some logistical warehouses but i've held off so far. tier1 pynobots are so slow I don't use them much yet anyway, just in a few cases. Not for train unloading.
9. You don't have enough sand

That's enough for now. Here's a quick picture of my tin block, just to show the grid layout (you can see it in the minimap). As you can see I once again cheated by using creating mode to move my design from my 7 station design to my 12 station design without pounding a nail through my skull

https://imgur.com/a/59r41fD

[evopwr]

and I don't like wasting, burning, venting stuff except as a stopgap.

Agreed! I have to admit to having lots going out a vent or sinkhole at the moment, with the plan to come back and balance things more as I progress. Its quite hard at the start though, so yeh, stopgap

1. If using LTN, you should either have some experience with it already or be ready to sink like 20 hrs into making mistakes with it at first. I don't know anything about TSM.

Watched several videos on both, and decided to try TSM for this particular mod, so I built a test scenario in an old base using TSM, and think(hope) I understand it.

2. My first design used like 7 stations per grid block and I got frustrated and redesigned everything.

Yeh thats what I was afraid of. But I'm going to try TSM which allows requesting multiple things to a single train stop - although slightly trickier than the usual one-resource-per-train stop approach. Time will tell....

3. I'm using 4x6 chunk sized grid blocks. These huge buildings need a lot of space, and that's the space that happened to fit in my monitor at min zoom.

I've done the same thing so far (just started 30 mins ago) - zoomed out as far as possible, and thats my zone size.

7. Coal dust seems unlimited until you try to use it as fuel for all your smelting. Then you run out

Oh wow, i didnt realise you can use coal dust as a fuel... duh... I just finished building a whole new area that converts it to Ash. lol....

Here's a quick picture of my tin block, just to show the grid layout (you can see it in the minimap).

Thankyou for the image! A picture says a thousand words Can you do another picture of the train area below the zone please please?

Thanks a lot for the feedback!

[immortal_sniper1]

and I don't like wasting, burning, venting stuff except as a stopgap.

Agreed! I have to admit to having lots going out a vent or sinkhole at the moment, with the plan to come back and balance things more as I progress. Its quite hard at the start though, so yeh, stopgap

1. If using LTN, you should either have some experience with it already or be ready to sink like 20 hrs into making mistakes with it at first. I don't know anything about TSM.

Watched several videos on both, and decided to try TSM for this particular mod, so I built a test scenario in an old base using TSM, and think(hope) I understand it.

2. My first design used like 7 stations per grid block and I got frustrated and redesigned everything.

Yeh thats what I was afraid of. But I'm going to try TSM which allows requesting multiple things to a single train stop - although slightly trickier than the usual one-resource-per-train stop approach. Time will tell....

3. I'm using 4x6 chunk sized grid blocks. These huge buildings need a lot of space, and that's the space that happened to fit in my monitor at min zoom.

I've done the same thing so far (just started 30 mins ago) - zoomed out as far as possible, and thats my zone size.

7. Coal dust seems unlimited until you try to use it as fuel for all your smelting. Then you run out

Oh wow, i didnt realise you can use coal dust as a fuel... duh... I just finished building a whole new area that converts it to Ash. lol....

Here's a quick picture of my tin block, just to show the grid layout (you can see it in the minimap).

Thankyou for the image! A picture says a thousand words Can you do another picture of the train area below the zone please please?

Thanks a lot for the feedback!

a few notees :
1 ltn is better for expensive items that are used in low amounts (all sodium stuff ) and i use ltn stations for 3-4 items per station
2 i produce as much as possible on site you i think mentioned training in presured air that is made better on spot
3 try to reduce the rail input as much as possible ( dont transport poric acid , transport diborane and make the boric acid an spot
YOU only need water and the ratio is 100:250 so 2.5less trains needed

[immortal_sniper1]

I'm in the middle of building a pure PyMods train base. I got as far as circuit1 with just belts and gave up after planning circuit2. I'm using LTN and a train grid design. I'm only now re-automating circuit1 after 90 hrs, because I've spent so much time on the base infrastructure and had to re-organize once already. For example, I don't have a circuit1 block or even a fiberboard block. I have a freaking sodium sulfate block! (I'm sure something else will go in there as well, HCl maybe? I have that next to oxygen/hydrogren right now) But sodium sulfate itself is used in over a dozen recipes it really deserves its own block. Part of the fun for me is making an efficient factory, and I don't like wasting, burning, venting stuff except as a stopgap. I get the sense pyanodon doesn't either because he's so quick to add recipes that allow you to use all waste products. Just this last week he added Sodium Hydroxide -> Sodium Sulfate, and Waste Water -> Urea.

Anyway, I have some thoughts on this

1. If using LTN, you should either have some experience with it already or be ready to sink like 20 hrs into making mistakes with it at first. I don't know anything about TSM.
2. My design uses 12 stations per grid block. Actually each grid has room for 12 stations below it, and 12 stations above it, but it shares that space with the adjacent grid. So ~12 station spaces per block. I generally use the bottom stations as input and the top stations as output. I wouldn't recommend fewer than this. My first design used like 7 stations per grid block and I got frustrated and redesigned everything.
3. I'm using 4x6 chunk sized grid blocks. These huge buildings need a lot of space, and that's the space that happened to fit in my monitor at min zoom.
4. I realize that this isn't enough stations for e.g. full chain smelting. However, it's enough stations for tier 2 smelting for sure. Once I get higher level pynobots and logistical warehouses and stuff I'll be able to use universal requester designs more easily.
5. You can definitely use at least 2 materials per stations if you want using circuits, and it's not that difficult. I moved away from that design because my blueprint books were getting too large. Also, stack inserters are tier 3 which is a monumental effort, so using only fast inserters with no bonus means you'd better have both sides of the train unloading. Fluids are more doable, but I'm sticking to 1 per station until I need to do otherwise.
6. It's probably easier in some cases to make stuff on site like coal, etc. But it's more fun in my opinion to have an efficient factory that makes use of all byproducts. Also, once you have a couple stations providing coke, etc. it's super easy to build a new requester station and instantly have fuel available.
7. Coal dust seems unlimited until you try to use it as fuel for all your smelting. Then you run out
8. I'm a dirty cheater. At least in a few areas. I gave myself LTN stations (requires circuit2, no way) fluid wagons (stainless steel, bad design decision IMO to require this for fluid wagons) and I finally deleted my dude running around and went into god mode. So much more fun for this type of challenge, I didn't like the walking/train riding simulator. I've considered cheating myself some logistical warehouses but i've held off so far. tier1 pynobots are so slow I don't use them much yet anyway, just in a few cases. Not for train unloading.
9. You don't have enough sand

That's enough for now. Here's a quick picture of my tin block, just to show the grid layout (you can see it in the minimap). As you can see I once again cheated by using creating mode to move my design from my 7 station design to my 12 station design without pounding a nail through my skull

https://imgur.com/a/59r41fD

9 sand extractors with iron STICK made in assembler3 with asmuch productivity as you can

[evopwr]

9. You don't have enough sand

Can't you just add lot of crushers on stone, to gravel, to sand? or not enough stone/gravel?
Guess i'll soon find out...

[Cardoyle]

So how do you do it?
1 train requester stop, but with multiple requesters at that stop, one for each input item? (perhaps a max of 4-6 per stop?)
And then the trains all stop at the same place, so you've have to use filter inserters to direct items from cargo wagon on to the right belt?
Or do you go via a warehouse first, containing all items, and then use filter inserters off the warehouse?

How do you fit fluids/gases in to that approach?
But how do you have multiple pumps at the same train stop? I assume you'd have to have multiple train stops, one per fluid/gas, or start getting tricky with circuitry based on Train ID? (and TSM would just make that even more complicated?)

I designed a very simple layout just to get the hang of things for now. Below is an example of my Filtration media setup. The trains arrive from the lower stacker.

Top station is the filtration output. They are loaded from a wharehouse and loaders(I read somewhere that the miniloaders version dosnt impact performance when used with trains). Once full(In this case each wagon only has one stack of 200) it goes to the TSM Yard which is the 2 vertical lanes to the left ready to be requested.

Middle station is the Requester for Stone, Activated Carbon and glass again using loaders and a wharehouse. Filterloaders are used to decide what goes on each belt.

Bottom Station is an Output for liquid tailings, once i have stainless steel i can build a liquid wagon which will come here load up and then go to a TSM tailings yard somewhere.

I can modify the amount of Stations/Stackers/Yards depending on demand and what is being made. For liquids in or out i think i will use a seperate station, they dont take up much space and as someone mentioned in another thread those 30k tanks are ideal, 3 of these line up nicely so you have 90k storage per wagon

Sorry about quality of screen shot, its hard to fit everything in but hopefully gets the idea across

[mxpal]

20190205183402_1.jpg (362.82 KiB) Viewed 13338 times

let me share my LTN base. I lay the rails in a semi gridded manner, but i do not restrict the size of each grid nor its design. The main goal is to allow train access on every product so the rail is kind of wrapping around each production chain. Since the whole py suite has a horrifyingly tangled web of supply and demand, you wont regret on using a big chunk of land on rails alone.

Any number of materials can be provided or requested on a station with a bit of circuitry work (more to that later if enough people want to listen).

20190205210752_1.jpg (568.37 KiB) Viewed 13338 times

See the picture with the aramid nano material factory:

20190205183905_1.jpg (701.9 KiB) Viewed 13338 times

i have one warehouse requesting 6 different solid materials and 3 liquid, though theoretically i can crank 8 fluid input/output in 1 fluid wagon space with the loading pumps directly attaching to both storage tank and wagon, or 12 if they are not.

Only single directional train is used to prevent the wagon position from swapping after the train reverses its travel direction.

The rail junction is a roundabout so all trains entering can exit in any direction. Zero deadlocks guaranteed.

20190205183745_1.jpg (790 KiB) Viewed 13338 times

No need to go for mass production: you will spend a great deal of time designing. even with a meager 0.5 items/s produced for most materials there will be way more red/green science than you ever need when you are busy designing circuit 2.

Though i cheated a bit by using new game + to give me 200 circuit 2 to start with for LTN stations, and some stainless steel for 2 fluid wagons.

[TwentyEighty]

9 sand extractors with iron STICK made in assembler3 with asmuch productivity as you can

Actually, true. Pyanodon just move PYRO excavation into tier 2 science, so maybe I can have enough sand now. Assembler 3 and productivity modules, now I don't know what you're talking about lol. I'm a simple farmer growing my kicalk to make circuit 1's.

Here's an example of one of my train stations. Like I said I'm going low tech, and if I ever run out of stations hopefully I'll be tier3 by then with faster bots and hopefully logistical warehouses to deal with it

[immortal_sniper1]

9 sand extractors with iron STICK made in assembler3 with asmuch productivity as you can

Actually, true. Pyanodon just move PYRO excavation into tier 2 science, so maybe I can have enough sand now. Assembler 3 and productivity modules, now I don't know what you're talking about lol. I'm a simple farmer growing my kicalk to make circuit 1's.

Here's an example of one of my train stations. Like I said I'm going low tech, and if I ever run out of stations hopefully I'll be tier3 by then with faster bots and hopefully logistical warehouses to deal with it

black marketmod i buy modules and assembler3(pecause 4 moduleslots) and sell stuff+power

[pyanodon]

Loved what you guys did until now.

[twan]

I use a modified version of the Haphollas Train network. This is circuit based pure vanilla solution and doesn't require you to cheat to get LTN stations in the beginning.
You can google Haphollas Train network or "HTN". Nilaus did a video review on that. I can also provide some screenshots/help if you want to look at it.
I've modified it slightly to cope with my way of using trains in my Pymods run, eg. I use 1-1 wagon trains due to the large stack sizes. This has worked almost perfectly for me, and doesn't require large stackers. I then "close" then station when I have supplied it. This circumvents the nearest train station to be supplied all the time (a "fault" that Haphollas is aware of)
For large demand inputs / outputs, I have small stackers (basically a long rail) for iron plates/copper plates/salt and I use 1-4wagon trains to bring some easily obtainable ores (iron ore, copper ore), or to get Tailings into my nexelit reprocessing.

I have a specific material station for every resource. Depending on the need, this puts out at least 1 full yellow belt of the material. Some stations can put out like 6 red belts (pure sand) to avoid waiting too long on train refills. I tend to keep about two full wagons of material as a buffer in the providing stations.

If there is a huge demand of a certain product in a material station (e.g. like lard for glycerol for advanced ore chains), I plop down a train grid blueprint next to it. If this material then overflows (because it has made enough), this can act as a secondary resource station of that product.

I have set up a large byproduct reprocessing station where I collect all byproducts like gravel, stone, sand, iron oxide, ash where I can redistribute them. If i have excess product in this station, I either reprocessed the materials into something more usefull (like sand). If all warehouses are properly filled and nothing useful can be made of it, I burn them in large burner plants, where I can burn about 4 red belts of material at full speed.

I have about 600h into my current playthrough, so after a while, you get somewhere . I'm almost into yellow science at this moment, having done red, green, military, blue and purple science at scale (which is sometimes about a half yellow belt for blue science for example).
I research new technologies about once every 100 hours I think (due to the large complexity of the recipes and because I'm spending a lot of time in Helmod trying to figure out the best way to make a certain recipe in the most sane way and aiming for at least a yellow belt to sustain the factory for the next stages)

If I'm noticing a large demand on a product after a certain step, I upgrade to a higher tier building or belt, or plop down extra copies.