The gist of my argument here, is that it's only important for the developers and art direction decision makers to use a color calibrated monitor, and even then only when figuring out how it'll look on average for people with general, consumer grade hardware. A known, standardized calibration acts as a baseline, for use by people who make these decisions for a living.Cadde wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:57 pmAnd i think you overestimate the average humans interest in caring for all that which you said about color calibration.
Furthermore, i did say average here. Meaning Wube should strive for the middle ground that makes everyone happy, not just the ones with monochrome monitors from the 60's or those who spent waaaaay too much effort looking up which monitor is "elite" enough to qualify for the visualphile hipsters.
I don't recommend everyone go out and buy color calibrated monitors, or calibration equipment. That'd be absurd. But it's also absurd to expect the developers to know how it'll look on your setup. If your monitor is so far off from the baseline standard that the changes they made look cartoony or overly bright compared to the old, that's not their fault.
On ordinary, every-day consumer hardware, the difference between the before and after is extremely small. If it looks so vastly different that you're vehemently against it so much, there's something going on with your display. So far, 3 people now have mentioned fixing their monitor settings and deciding the new colors aren't so bad after all. I didn't really expect anyone to do so, but it's neat that they did.
I highly doubt it's a majority of players. I'm betting the vast majority of people had no problems with the changes, and just read the FFF post and moved on with their lives - blissfully unaware of how many people were complaining about it on the forums.Cadde wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:57 pmAh yes here we go. "If you don't like it then mod it"
So if an overwhelming majority of players who don't like the childish colors have to run mods to enjoy the game, that's all good because the underwhelming minority has such an interest in color calibrated monitors that everything looks dark and gloomy to them unless the brightness and saturation is turned all the way up to 11?
Cool, let's assume Wube removes belts from the game and replaces them with logistic robots all the way through the game... Let's imagine you like belts...
"That's what mods are for! If you want belts you can add them with mods dude"
I would have done the same (as I do with all prior FFF news posts), except that color correction algorithms is almost literally all I've done for a few years now, for fun. So I felt obligated to make some posts on the topic and interact a bit with the community.
Note: I completely understand I am in a minority, by a long shot. Heck, I came here initially because I had a bit of an issue with them going with LUTs for the day/night cycle, but after hearing the benefits for it being more moddable and easier for artists to get working, I backed down on that. Why? Because that's absolutely true, and I had to be reminded that my nerdiness of wanting to express complex lighting changes with a grid of 9 numbers is an extremely niche interest that nobody else cares about (and rightly so). Besides, I can bake those calculations into a LUT and still get my color nerd fix.
I was completely and utterly wrong in that original position I had. And that's OK.
Again, I think you're overestimating how many people are actually complaining, when compared to how many people just are not saying anything because they have no complaints.Cadde wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:57 pmYou are killing your own argument here. Mods exist for the FEW that want something more or different with the game. If a MAJORITY doesn't like the way the game plays then you have a problem with the game. In this case i'd say a majority is going to have problems with the color changes while the visualphiles who think it's all about pixels and nothing at all about personal taste will drown any such discussion with technical details.
And besides that, mods exist to allow the community to be creative with the game engine. They don't exist to make a game playable for the majority of players.
That said, overall I agree with the basic point you're making - and I have used the exact same argument against the Gnome desktop environment. When you need extensions/mods for basic and fundamental functionality, there is a problem. However, I don't believe this to be one of those cases.
I would like to get into game dev, yeah. Extremely competitive field though, and I need a job that pays as soon as possible so I can move out. Indie game dev won't do that for me unless I can magically overcome my ADHD-PI, and professional game dev for large companies is a bit of a shit show right now.Cadde wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:57 pmSo negative feedback is insulting to you then? Great! Maybe you should become a game developer and at the first mention that you've made a bad choice you can call them insulting and ignore them and keep making a game with glaring flaws that will turn most of your customers at the door.
From my own experience though, Wube at least knows how to listen to negative feedback and not get all touchy feely about it. And in fact change their minds about something controversial from time to time.
The only ones who can't take negative feedback are those living in a bubble thinking everything they do is perfect.
I just want a regular dev job so I can get my own place and save up some money, be able to afford medical insurance, and maybe - just maybe - I'll then be able to spend time making a game.
I just don't think it's called for to first say that different players have different tastes, and then singling out the developers' own tastes and specifically calling them in particular bad. That's just rude, especially since you combined your post with a triad against calibration standards that are specifically designed to help developers and designers make judgements like this.Cadde wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:57 pmAs much as you want this to be some kind of dictatorship where you get to tell people what to think and say, i am sorry to say that you have no such control here or anywhere else for that matter.
I have every right in the world to provide feedback, especially when they ASKED for it in the first place.
And even if they didn't ask for it i would give it when i feel they are doing something bad. Without unfiltered feedback you have what amounts to an echo chamber.
Even if you push out the nastiest sulfur turd of a game, in an echo chamber, you would be praised for it because everyone is so damn PC that they don't dare tell the truth. I am not that kind of person and that's called freedom.
Even if you take my life, you cannot take my freedom so how about you stop trying kk?
You're basically saying, "It looks bad on MY system, which is more important than MOST systems, and that makes the developers' tastes bad!" And that's what I have a problem with.
Well, I will say this: those are way better than what I would have probably wound up with! Perhaps they're sliightly too shiny for my tastes, but that's just needless nitpicking (and doesn't apply to the first one, nor the white one; both of those look excellent to me).Cadde wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:57 pmI KNOW
Feel free to throw a fit over how bad it is, i would like to hear about it so i can take in what you have to say and depending on your choice of words i might actually become better at it.
Or would you rather hear "You have no right to give my negative feedback... negative feedback. My feels might be hurt! I am calling the cyberbully police!"
EDIT: Forgot my second take on an iron pipe.
Maybe I could also nitpick the lighting, as it looks more like indoor lighting than outdoor lighting... But at the zoom levels I'd likely be seeing them at most of the time? If anything, they'd fit in with the 'slightly overcast' look that the game currently has. So that's still not a point against them, just making a note about the stylistic choices you made.
Very nice work