[MOD 0.17+] Adamo Mods

Topics and discussion about specific mods
myricaulus
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 3:33 pm
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.17+] Adamo Mods

Post by myricaulus » Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:38 pm

BlueTemplar wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:27 pm
That's just the expected change from increasing pipe size ?
No the pipe has still a fluid-box of 200, something else changed.

Anyways i had a different idea, how many Steam turbines you can now passthrough out of a tank with a pump? Its an increadible 88 now. so a bit more then 0.5GW out of one compressed steam tank.
20191003224229_1.jpg
20191003224229_1.jpg (1.26 MiB) Viewed 309 times
78 with 2 iron (200) pipes
64 with 4 pipes
53 with 6 pipes
48 with 8 pipes
45 with 10 pipes
43 with 12 pipes
41 with 14 pipes

81 with 2 (800size stone) pipe
74 with 2 (400size modded plastic) pipe :?
78 with 2 iron (200) pipes
50 with 2 (100size copper ) pipe

So lets say: even with a moderate optimized reactor arrangement you can easily passthrough around 40 Turbines now...

Ok i tried a bit around and found an interesting "issue". The infinite pipe can be set to a fixed pressure. and usually 100% pressure mean the pipe is full.
I connected it to all 4 pipes with interesting results: actual/max
copper: 100/100
iron: 111/200
plastic 400/400
stone: 411/800

This correlates to above findings, that the plastic pipe is kinda odd to the others .
So it appears you enabled the iron and stone pipe to "compress" their contents to about 200% pressure. Which then make them like 2 as good than a vanilla pipe.
Sine the pump can still fill a iron or stone pipe easily to their max level, it will indeed increase the flow speed dramatically

Adamo
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 443
Joined: Sat May 24, 2014 7:00 am
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.17+] Adamo Mods

Post by Adamo » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:13 pm

myricaulus wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:58 pm
I don't have time this second to digest and respond to everything you've said, so I will come back to it. I just wanted to point out quickly that you may not be as confused as you think you are. You are completely correct that each water line into the reactor will require two offshore pumps. Since each side of the reactor has 6 water input lines, that's 12 offshore pumps on each side, or 24 total. A single powered pump should be sufficient for each line, and in fact, with my new settings, a powered pump going into the reactor lines may no longer be necessary, depending on how far away your water source is.

myricaulus
Long Handed Inserter
Long Handed Inserter
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 3:33 pm
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.17+] Adamo Mods

Post by myricaulus » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:18 pm

Btw: You have just created a real awesome mod ... These new pipes are incredible. They even feel like cheating a bit.

And its done, my massive quadratic plant with 3,84GW continuous power. First time fully build, this time optimized for your mod, and working at peak efficiency.
Tile able into 4 pieces.
20191004020517_1.jpg
20191004020517_1.jpg (1.46 MiB) Viewed 296 times
Ok it stabilized at 3,86GW. Somehow it produces 20MW than it theoretically should? I calculated the 3,84GW value assuming 40MW per reactor and neighboring bonus.

zebediah49
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:17 pm
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.17+] Adamo Mods

Post by zebediah49 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:58 pm

I have an idea that falls somewhere between "request" and "request for implementation advice since I've not done much mod-writing".

I'm in love with the heat-powered reaction vessels -- by virtue of being small and heat-powered, it turns nearly all of the complexity into "how do we get the stuff in and out", rather than "meh, just blueprint a few more acres of chemplants".

That said, having the only practical option to power a few of them being the burner plant is kinda "meh". I've considered an electric heater would be nice, convenient, and realistic, but isn't what I want to try first. (Also, with your Physics efficiency changes, you would actually pay a price for converting heat to electricity just to re-heat things elsewhere).

The other underutilized thing in my game/opinion is the LEU fuel cells. There's a whole refining chain around them, but they're only used for running low-temp boilers.

Thus, I'm trying to implement a small reactor that runs on LEU cells. That way I can have nuclear powered chemistry, nuclear furnaces, etc. I'm thinking 1x1, 5MW, 700C max, no adjacency efficiency bonus.

Do you have any suggestions on that, before I get too far up to my neck in copy/paste from the 300+ lines of LUA that define a vanilla reactor?

mmmPI
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 364
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:10 pm
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.17+] Adamo Mods

Post by mmmPI » Fri Nov 08, 2019 1:51 pm

zebediah49 wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:58 pm

The other underutilized thing in my game/opinion is the LEU fuel cells. There's a whole refining chain around them, but they're only used for running low-temp boilers.

Thus, I'm trying to implement a small reactor that runs on LEU cells. That way I can have nuclear powered chemistry, nuclear furnaces, etc. I'm thinking 1x1, 5MW, 700C max, no adjacency efficiency bonus.

Do you have any suggestions on that, before I get too far up to my neck in copy/paste from the 300+ lines of LUA that define a vanilla reactor?
The LEU fuel cells, are not used in the vanilla nuclear reactor, but only in the low-temp boilers.

This had an unexpected consequences when i tried to used them at larger scale : inserter will NOT output the used fuel cell. Wether yellow, blue , even filter inserter.

This i think i recall being told had to do with the fact that the vanilla boiler has not default output contrary to the nuclear reactor.

Other consequences is that the fuel is not being burned continuously as in nuclear reactor, but rather like coal in a regular boiler, that doesn't get consumed if you don't draw power from it. ( useful for saving ressources, pretty bad if you use it for plutonium creation.)

A 1x1 reactor using LEU fuel cells would be a nice addition for precise usage.

I had nuclear power furnaces and chemistry in my game using several big reactors because i had plenty of uranium and it was fun to make.

Used the LEU one only at start with an array of accumulators that went from 30% to 90% charge, enriching uranium faster or slower, to always drain maximum power supposedly to try and get plutonium, i had to change method while scaling up the base.

zebediah49
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:17 pm
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.17+] Adamo Mods

Post by zebediah49 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:09 am

mmmPI wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 1:51 pm
A 1x1 reactor using LEU fuel cells would be a nice addition for precise usage.
Just for you then :)

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/an-extension

It's very alpha (AKA the graphics are 0% complete)... but it's 3MW of LEU consuming 1x1 reactor, and it works in my world. Depends on both Cinefaction and Nuclear. (Strictly speaking it could be independent of Cinefaction, but for now it's pulling graphics)

Adamo
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 443
Joined: Sat May 24, 2014 7:00 am
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.17+] Adamo Mods

Post by Adamo » Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:56 am

zebediah49 wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:58 pm
mmmPI wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 1:51 pm
Sorry took me so long to respond; I just realized this conversation was going on. Thanks for the interest, guys. I'm touched!

A couple of thoughts, yes. First off, so awesome that you started an extension mod, and I'll support it however I can.

I'm pleased you mentioned in particular liking that the small size creates a new type of logistics challenge. I was going for that effect here, and in a few other places, and glad someone enjoyed it.

I tried to make an electric heater. It's an obvious choice and I would have included it with heat processing if it worked. I tried every conceivable combination of power sources on the reactor entity type. The reactor type is the only entity I found that could produce heat besides the heat interface. To control the heat interface seemed to require scripting, which I try to avoid as a "fix", because scripts introduce new error surfaces; not that I don't like scripting mods overall, and I do have a few. So I felt the reactor entity was the only choice, but I could not find any combination of energy sources that allowed me to pull power from the electrical grid, into the reactor, to make heat. It's possible I missed something, but I tend to be thorough. If we did find a way to do this, I would like this very much, and I want it to be a fundamental part of heat processing (with the idea that with physics mod, yes, this comes at a cost, and that's the price you pay).

Making heat from LEU seems reasonable enough. I think we should make it a "CANDU" reactor. These are Canadian-designed reactors that exist all over the world, use very low-enriched uranium (CANDU can even run on unenriched uranium -- and I am not opposed to allowing people to make heat from that directly in a CANDU, either, since, after all, you can do it in real life.). I can setup a new equation in my spreadsheet to figure out the correct numbers for that.

mmmPi has brought up the issue with LEU before (Among many other things!), and this does seem to have potential to be helpful. I've also received a request on the mod portal to make a fluid-powered heater, similar to the gas-boiler but for heat, which I would like to do, but I lack a good graphic for this case. Maybe I'll just implement them with the heat interface symbols for now, so we can setup all the stats, and then worry about the graphics.

Does that cover everything? I think it might. Let me know what you guys think.

P.S. I just realized, we should also be able to make heat from Pu-238. So I'll need to add a radiothermo reactor that takes Pu-238. The real fuel length for a Pu-238 reactor like an RTG is about 80-100 years, so I could set the fuel value at something like that, or I could just make it part of the unit's recipe, thus assuming 80-100 years is "forever". I think I'll go the second route, since this means you can move the entity around without losing that fuel value.

P.P.S. now looking at your nuclear extension mod more closely, looks like you've already done the work to get the heat source up and running -- nice! I'll give it a try in a few moments. If you want to support this mod, I'd be happy to not include a version in my mod, to leave that space open for you. Or if you'd rather I make it a part of the main mod, I can do that, too. Let me know what you would prefer. Either way, I recommend we model it after the CANDU reactor, though. :)

zebediah49
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:17 pm
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.17+] Adamo Mods

Post by zebediah49 » Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:44 am

Adamo wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:56 am
And you said it took *you* a long time to respond...

Anyway:

- I tried to make anything I did there properly prefixed to not cause collisions if you make it 1st party
- Anything you think would be appropriate for your primary mod I think should go there. A single monolithic and consistent entity is generally a better user experience than multiple disjointed products.
- I might try my hand at the electric powered reactor. I don't honestly expect it to work, it's just weird and bothering me that

Code: Select all

energy_source={type="electric",usage_priority="secondary-input"}
doesn't work.

I'm a little torn on using CANDU as the template for the small-reactor concept. It's a really cool design for burning... well, anything... but it feels a little too big and advanced. (Like, "a billion dollars of heavy water" as a requirement). I was thinking some kind of equivalent of the boiler thing in terms of sub-critical LEU fuel use.

------

That said, this has led me down an interesting path of reading: I hadn't realized that the majority of commercial reactors were now on LEU. Meanwhile, small reactors (as in ships, submarines, etc.) are generally HEU-based. So, I'm kinda backwards here.

If starting from "ground zero", I would probably propose something like this to balance gameplay vs realism:

1. Introductory tech: LEU, subcritical reactors (boiler and small heat reactor, low power not super efficient)
2. Initial criticality: critical fast-neutron reactors (more efficient, but requires high enriched uranium)
2a. Small reactors: HEU-based small reactor for running "stuff", and portable reactors for amor
3. Advanced reactors: critical reactors that can run on LEU -- BWR, PWR. (This is what we are primarily running commercially IRL)
4. CANDU: heavy water based (do we force people to push a bunch of water through the centrifuge to get the heavy water required?), capable off burning pretty much anything.
3a. Plutonium or other RTG (equipment sized and building sized). I agree that I prefer "permanently fueled", so that they can be moved around and not worried about.

Note that for the 2a small reactor part, I would consider offering 1/10th sized fuel cells, in order to run mini-sized reactors.

That results in seven types of reactor-like items though, which is... potentially a lot. Conversely, it would allow for some more realism and creativity, transitioning from basic and less efficient reactors, to more efficient ones that can use more easily produced fuel. Maybe if some of these reactors are different sizes from Vanilla, it would be more interesting? CANDU can be 3x3?

Also, I really like the concept of re-purposing a HEU line from running a fast-neutron reactor on HEU fuel to supplying HEU for a LEU REMIX to run a fancier reactor.

---------

Actually, thinking about it a bit more, I'm not sure how I feel about the RTG as a "one building generator". The alternative would be either (or both of) a Peltier or sterling generator, which directly turns heat into electricity (at either like 5% or 30%, respectively). Thus, a basic RTG would be a radioisotope thermal core, with a couple peltiers around it. Figure (very roughly) peltier 500kWt -> 25kWe in 1x1. Stirling 3MWt -> 1MWe in a 3x3. This would have some interesting implications in map locations where water is not conveniently available: the footprint and heat distribution process would be more challenging, but it would be capable of operating without water. Numbers there were chosen such that the 3x12 of a normal boiler+2x steam engines, which produces ~12MWe would significantly outperform (3x it turns out) the Stirling in terms of power density, even before heat routing is considered. I would probably *not* give it heat connections on all sides; the logistic challenge in not being able to just stick heat into a big grid sounds nice. It would also then be 30% (direct Stirling) vs 50% (heat exchanger + boiler) efficient -- 60% as much -- as the more complex version. Hopefully that much balances the simplicity of eliminating water.

Peltier is only (as IRL) useful when you don't need much electricity. My 25kWe output would make a cross with 4 Peltiers around a isotope core be capable of putting out 100kWe. It's a bit more (20kWe/square, vs 6.7kWe) dense than a vanilla solar panel, but significantly moreso than a Physics modified one. I'm not sure it'd be actually useful for anything more than a lamp. Maybe a train station, though it would have a rough time with stack inserters. I'm not even sure if anyone would use it over just putting a Stirling engine on there.

I like that; this might be my next attempted project, if you don't decide you like it and do it first :)

zebediah49
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:17 pm
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.17+] Adamo Mods

Post by zebediah49 » Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:30 pm

I would normally not double-post, but the above was already a monster.

I'm not sure what went wrong when you tried it, but the electric energy source works fine as far as I can tell.

I've pushed a 1x1 5MW "Electric Heater" into ANE 0.0.2, if you want to verify and/or use any of my prototypes. https://mods.factorio.com/mod/an-extension . (As before, make any thing you want 1st party, and I'll just remove any redundant content).

It's possible that it didn't work before when you tried it due to a bug, but Wube fixed it so that the electric heater now works?

Adamo
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 443
Joined: Sat May 24, 2014 7:00 am
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.17+] Adamo Mods

Post by Adamo » Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:22 am

zebediah49 wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:44 am
it's just weird and bothering me that

Code: Select all

energy_source={type="electric",usage_priority="secondary-input"}
doesn't work.
I know exactly what you mean.
zebediah49 wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:44 am
That said, this has led me down an interesting path of reading [...]

If starting from "ground zero", I would probably propose something like this to balance gameplay vs realism [...]
This realization is precisely what prompted me to define the tiers I have now, which I think is a simplified version of your overall premise. Just to be clear, my intent is that the LEU fuel is used in the "simplest" reactor: the boiling water reactor. HEU is necessary to move up to the more-advanced fast reactor (hopefully people are noticing that I changed the name of the vanilla reactor to fast reactor), which can also burn the most-advanced MOX fuel. Typically, in real life, more-advanced reactors require more-complicated fuel production systems. One of my thoughts about the CANDU being a simple reactor is that it requires no uranium enrichment, but I had dismissed the need for heavy water, you are correct about that. So far my approach to water situations is "make it require a lot of water if it needs something that only occurs at a small fraction". This is not a satisfactory solution. I don't like to introduce a new resource recipe to support a single building, but if multiple buildings existed that needed heavy water, then it might be worth making a recipe for it. In that case it would be a late-game advantage that gave you the ability to use uranium without enriching it.

HEU fuel used in subs is on the boundary between the defintions of LEU and HEU fuel, typically around 25-30% if I'm not mistaken, and is precisely what I modelled my HEU enrichment recipe percentages after (I think I chose 29%). Weapons-grade, if I recall, is set to 90% U-235.

Different sized reactors would be good, in my view. Really I'm just limited by my graphical inability. I can easily produce more fuel burn and enrichment recipes based on new ratios for new reactors, and I have all my colorings and stuff setup in a library. I just can't produce graphics at all. I have tried and failed. :P I will try again, but it comes down to that it will take a lot of time to produce something that I'm satisfied with.
zebediah49 wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:44 am
Also, I really like the concept of re-purposing a HEU line from running a fast-neutron reactor on HEU fuel to supplying HEU for a LEU REMIX to run a fancier reactor.
zebediah49 wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:44 am
Actually, thinking about it a bit more, I'm not sure how I feel about the RTG as a "one building generator". [...]

I like that; this might be my next attempted project, if you don't decide you like it and do it first :)
I envisioned pu-238 as a sort of end-game product, since it provides power forever (80 years being forever in game terms). But I don't provide much to do with it. In my mind, this opens it up for other mod authors to use the plutonium for creative end-game things. If you are interested in sticking to the energy conservation metrics, I can give power output estimates per unit based on some attempts at mass calculations from other fluid and item ingredients along its production chain. But you can also see what that number is by looking at the power output of the RTG equipment; I set that to the number I computed.

Adamo
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 443
Joined: Sat May 24, 2014 7:00 am
Contact:

Re: [MOD 0.17+] Adamo Mods

Post by Adamo » Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:26 am

zebediah49 wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:30 pm
I would normally not double-post, but the above was already a monster.

I'm not sure what went wrong when you tried it, but the electric energy source works fine as far as I can tell.

I've pushed a 1x1 5MW "Electric Heater" into ANE 0.0.2, if you want to verify and/or use any of my prototypes. https://mods.factorio.com/mod/an-extension . (As before, make any thing you want 1st party, and I'll just remove any redundant content).

It's possible that it didn't work before when you tried it due to a bug, but Wube fixed it so that the electric heater now works?
That is entirely possible, and this is fantastic news! Nice work. I'll take a look as soon as a I can; maybe this weekend, but we have a holiday in the USA which sometimes creates family obligations.

Post Reply

Return to “Mods”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: frugal10191