[MOD 0.17] Industrial Revolution

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fishycat
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Re: [MOD 0.17] Industrial Revolution

Post by fishycat » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:30 am

It really isn't that big of a problem, more a polishing thing for the devs I guess. Maybe lighten up the background just a little bit, so that it isn't black on dark grey.

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Re: [MOD 0.17] Industrial Revolution

Post by Mylon » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:21 pm

Deadlock989 wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:25 am
Jesus Christ, I hate that basic/normal/expensive recipe syntax with a blazing passion. Fixed for next version, whenever that is.
I know. Took me way too much trial and error to write this function that tries to interpret recipes.

Feel free to use any or all of it if it helps cover more potential edge cases.

Code: Select all

	--Call this for "normal" and/or "expensive".
	local function hard_mode(difficulty)
		--log("Adjusting difficulty for " .. difficulty .. " mode for recipe " .. recipe.name)
		local ingredient_list = original_recipe.ingredients or original_recipe[difficulty].ingredients
		recipe[difficulty].result = nil
		recipe[difficulty].results = {}
		local temp_ingredient_count = 0
		for index, ingredient in pairs(ingredient_list) do
			--recipe[difficulty].results[index] = {ingredient[1], 0.95 * ingredient[2]} --This errors if it's a fluid
			if ingredient.amount then
				if ingredient.type ~= "fluid" then --Fluid is discarded
					recipe[difficulty].results[index] = util.table.deepcopy(ingredient)
					recipe[difficulty].results[index].probability = 0.95
				end
			else
				recipe[difficulty].results[index] = util.table.deepcopy(ingredient)
				recipe[difficulty].results[index][2] = 0.95 * recipe[difficulty].results[index][2]
			end
		end
		ingredient_max = math.max(ingredient_max, #recipe[difficulty].results)
	end
	

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Re: [MOD 0.17] Industrial Revolution

Post by ukezi » Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:30 pm

With the new tool tips I see that you made burner inserters as fast as normal inserters, while the long ones are still faster, burner and normal. I would suggest to reduce the speed of the long burners to 0.014 (0,84 turns/s, base game normal inserters) and speed up normal inserters to 0.02 (1.2 turns/s base game long inserters) while the fast ones keep being 0.04(2.4 turns/s) fast.

Or maybe new speeds like 0.167(1t/s) for burner, 0.025 (1.5t/s) for basic electric and 0.0375 (2.25t/s) for fast ones, x1.5 per tier. Maybe even chrome/titanium tech super fast ones?

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Re: [MOD 0.17] Industrial Revolution

Post by Deadlock989 » Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:57 pm

fishycat wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:30 am
It really isn't that big of a problem, more a polishing thing for the devs I guess. Maybe lighten up the background just a little bit, so that it isn't black on dark grey.
It's not so much that, more that we are part-way through a series of cosmetic updates and I would prefer to fix it all in one go when we know what's what. I am looking forward to the player/crafting GUI update because I think most of the IR icons will really shine on it, based on what the non-carbon ones look like in the new tooltips.
ukezi wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:30 pm
With the new tool tips I see that you made burner inserters as fast as normal inserters, while the long ones are still faster, burner and normal. I would suggest to reduce the speed of the long burners to 0.014 (0,84 turns/s, base game normal inserters) and speed up normal inserters to 0.02 (1.2 turns/s base game long inserters) while the fast ones keep being 0.04(2.4 turns/s) fast.

Or maybe new speeds like 0.167(1t/s) for burner, 0.025 (1.5t/s) for basic electric and 0.0375 (2.25t/s) for fast ones, x1.5 per tier. Maybe even chrome/titanium tech super fast ones?
Yes, noticed that as well now that inserter tooltips display rotation speed in human-readable form for comparison. My preference at the moment is to equalise the speed of long-handed with regular, I never fully realised how much faster red inserters actually are. There is an "orange inserter" in the next version of IR which is basically a yellow filter inserter to tide you over to Steel Age blue/purple ones, but that is more than enough inserters, arguably too many already, you don't need twitch-speed ones as well when high-capacity stack inserters exist. In 1.0.7 (which is on the bench at the moment) inserter icons also have an overlay if they are a long-handed or a filter variant, so that you're not just relying on various bits of rainbow to tell you what they do.

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Re: [MOD 0.17] Industrial Revolution

Post by ukezi » Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:28 pm

Deadlock989 wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:57 pm
Yes, noticed that as well now that inserter tooltips display rotation speed in human-readable form for comparison. My preference at the moment is to equalise the speed of long-handed with regular, I never fully realised how much faster red inserters actually are. There is an "orange inserter" in the next version of IR which is basically a yellow filter inserter to tide you over to Steel Age blue/purple ones, but that is more than enough inserters, arguably too many already, you don't need twitch-speed ones as well when high-capacity stack inserters exist. In 1.0.7 (which is on the bench at the moment) inserter icons also have an overlay if they are a long-handed or a filter variant, so that you're not just relying on various bits of rainbow to tell you what they do.
How about long filter ones? You could also ask bob for the adjustable inserter code and maybe get rid of long inserters altogether.

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Re: [MOD 0.17] Industrial Revolution

Post by Deadlock989 » Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:03 pm

ukezi wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:28 pm
How about long filter ones? You could also ask bob for the adjustable inserter code and maybe get rid of long inserters altogether.
The only thing I felt was seriously lacking on my last playthrough was Iron Age electric filter inserters, so they've been added for the next version. If people want more options and more inserters that do more things, mods already exist that provide them. Bob's Inserters is reported to work just fine with IR. Other mods are also available.

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Re: [MOD 0.17] Industrial Revolution

Post by Karlito15 » Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:33 am

Sry if this has been mentioned before, but I didn't find it in the last two pages.

You recently introduced miniguns with the respective ammo. It deals the same damage as titanium bullets, but with double the shooting speed. The problem I see, is that you can upgrade the normal bullets to uranium-enriched, which doubles the damage. So a submachinegun with uranium bullets has the same dps like a minigun with (titanium)-minigun-ammo, which kinda defeats the point of the whole minigun thing.
Maybe you could introduce uranium-enriched-minigun-ammo, which can be costly but keeps the damage advantage of the minigun over the normal bullets.

Any thoughts on this?

Greetings from Berlin!

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Re: [MOD 0.17] Industrial Revolution

Post by Deadlock989 » Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:05 am

Karlito15 wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:33 am
So a submachinegun with uranium bullets has the same dps like a minigun with (titanium)-minigun-ammo
But with much lower range and much more expensive to make, and you're not correct that it's the same DPS.

Submachine gun with fully upgraded shooting speed and equivalent ammo damage research (shooting speed 5 and ammo damage 5), and assuming that all bullets hit a target: 20 bullets/s, x 50 damage each for uranium magazines = 1000 DPS with a range of 18

Minigun with equivalent research: 30 bullets/s, x 24 damage each for titanium ammo belts = 720 DPS with a range of 24

Military research is changing somewhat in the next version because I felt it was far too easy to queue-'n'-forget the bulk of military research in early/midgame before you even have the infrastructure to use half the weaponry it affects. Miniguns will also be locked to 30 shots/s from their introduction, so that they always have a better fire rate than submachine guns. But otherwise miniguns are working as intended, will not be changing. You have a choice between endgame nuclear ammo in personal weapons and turrets for maximum damage but with more limited range, or a bulky long range version of the second best ammo that has an additional reload time, harsher movement speed penalty, and chews through the metal at a comparative rate of 150%. Not everything has to be an automatically superior upgrade that makes the previous incarnation 100% obsolete.

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Re: [MOD 0.17] Industrial Revolution

Post by ZombieMooose » Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:06 pm

Deadlock989 wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:05 am
Not everything has to be an automatically superior upgrade that makes the previous incarnation 100% obsolete.
100% agree. Lasers aren't even like that for vanilla.

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Re: [MOD 0.17] Industrial Revolution

Post by mrvn » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:01 am

PTTG wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:17 am
Could the flare stack be used to boil off excess water? This could allow excess water from water filtration plants to be automatically disposed of in an alternative way.
I think you are supposed to do water filtration in place and loop the water back into the ore purification process. 4 ore purifier and one water filter make a nice set that just needs a little water added now and then. I have a water tank in the loop with a top-up walve and offshore pump to keep the water tank 80% filled. That keeps things running and you are left with some gravel and sand that can be send to the glass works.
Last edited by mrvn on Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [MOD 0.17] Industrial Revolution

Post by sylv3r » Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:48 pm

Hi!

First of all I am totally impressed with the work. The constant reinvention and rebuilding of the factor, that is necessary through the ages, is awesome ... apart from all the amazing sprites, the overall consistency and balance and whatnot. Totally great.

Two (very minor) suggestions:
- One very slightly frustrating thing is the whole tin business. A possible approach would be to be able to get back to crushed ore from ingots, with a considerable loss, so that you can multiply through refining. The reason being: I need refined tin to get lead for robots and so on. But that is unusable for glass as this also needs crushed tin apart from ingot. Currently my steel storages get flooded with refined tin as I am not there with the second washing. As balancing is always a tricky thing where you probably have a few playthorughs of knowledge, crushing ingots would solve the issue without rebalancing and would also add a nice add-on to the recycling. Scrap > Ingot > Crushed

- A second suggestion which is totally a gameplay thing, but totally helpful especially in IR as vanilla can do without: in the tool tips it would be highly helpful to see what products this current product can be used for. If you have any suggestion for a mod or a better place to post. THX. For now I have the feeling - maybe wrong, that deadlock has a better connection to the def guys.

Megathanks for great hours of super-entertainment and best of luck for your future. At this level you are a great game dev/designer in your own right.

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Re: [MOD 0.17] Industrial Revolution

Post by Deadlock989 » Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:15 pm

sylv3r wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:48 pm
Two (very minor) suggestions:
Thanks for the compliments.

Tin - I agree that the way it needs shipping around the factory back and forth can be irritating sometimes. But it's much better now than it was before in the earliest release. There is now a constant drain on tin for all electronics and there is also no constant requirement of lead for yellow science, which was really annoying because it always created far more tin than could ever be used, no matter what you did.

I don't think the multi-product refining can ever be perfectly balanced, you can look on that as a bug or a feature, up to you, I've mentally checked out and moved on. Wube's solution to the same problem in oil refining was to dumb down oil production with the built-in voiding. The acid washing in IR has a similar function but it doesn't completely make the unwanted products go away, requiring the player to do some creative things with circuit control or other kinds of stockpile/supply/demand balancing. The oil-refining-multi-product problem also has the advantage that you can plausibly turn all byproducts into a one way route to a single lowest common denominator, i.e. petroleum gas, and you can't do that with metallic elements like tin and lead and gold unless you are making some nonsense alchemy mod with blood magic swords and enchantment and all that jazz - I don't really care about realism in Factorio mods but even I have a line of plausibility I don't want to cross.

Tin ingots being crushed back to crushed ore would have some balance consequences, it would have to be an incredibly low rate of return or you'd have a positive feedback loop - i.e. infinite tin production from just 10 ore - so I'm not very motivated to do it.

If you happen to have some playstyle that I didn't predict, e.g. literally blotting out the sky with logibots, then a lot of tin incineration is likely your only recourse, and that's just the way it is. There are unwanted byproduct mountains in real life industry that have consequences for the environment as well, sulphur is a good example.

The second thing - I use FNEI for that. Obviously I don't need it any more because I know the mod inside out but it was totally invaluable during the mod's development. Modders can't really influence tooltips directly, in the old tooltips I could kind of fake it with rich text and extended item/recipe descriptions, but those are mostly being taken out of the next version because the new tooltips are so much better.

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Re: [MOD 0.17] Industrial Revolution

Post by melechkibitzer » Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:06 pm

I don't know if your sound effects for the assemblers is from the regular factorio files, but if you made them specially for this mod can you please edit out all the mouse clicks that are in the recording? It sounds like someone is frantically clicking all the time and it's super annoying

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Re: [MOD 0.17] Industrial Revolution

Post by Deadlock989 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:31 pm

melechkibitzer wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:06 pm
I don't know if your sound effects for the assemblers is from the regular factorio files, but if you made them specially for this mod can you please edit out all the mouse clicks that are in the recording? It sounds like someone is frantically clicking all the time and it's super annoying
No idea what you're referring to.

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Re: [MOD 0.17] Industrial Revolution

Post by melechkibitzer » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:56 pm

Deadlock989 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:31 pm
melechkibitzer wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:06 pm
I don't know if your sound effects for the assemblers is from the regular factorio files, but if you made them specially for this mod can you please edit out all the mouse clicks that are in the recording? It sounds like someone is frantically clicking all the time and it's super annoying
No idea what you're referring to.
Copper assemblers. There's the sound of mouse clicks in the recording of the sound effects loop for the copper assembler. There's either 2 or 3 mouse clicks depending on where the loop begins and ends. It's like bump bump-ba bump bump (click)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cU3pGd ... sp=sharing

I made a recording of a bit of the audio from the game. I tried using vocaroo to upload it before but that made it too compressed. I made a google drive link to it though here. Maybe listen to it with headphones and I did some hard limiting so the assembler noise peaks are smoothed out more, hoping that it would highlight the clicks. The clicks happen at about 2 seconds in, then like 6 seconds in, then like 9 seconds in, but there are a few after that as well.

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Re: [MOD 0.17] Industrial Revolution

Post by Deadlock989 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:06 am

melechkibitzer wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:56 pm
Copper assemblers. There's the sound of mouse clicks in the recording of the sound effects loop for the copper assembler. There's either 2 or 3 mouse clicks depending on where the loop begins and ends. It's like bump bump-ba bump bump (click)
The sound was based on this. I can't hear any "mouse clicks" in it. There are various quiet but brief high pitched squeaks and hisses in the background, perhaps your set up is foregrounding those for some reason.

I'm fine with it as it is, it's a freebie mod made by an amateur, containing freebie sound effects made by amateurs, after all. If it really bothers you, replace the file in the sounds folder with something else.

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Re: [MOD 0.17] Industrial Revolution

Post by melechkibitzer » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:29 am

Deadlock989 wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:06 am
melechkibitzer wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:56 pm
Copper assemblers. There's the sound of mouse clicks in the recording of the sound effects loop for the copper assembler. There's either 2 or 3 mouse clicks depending on where the loop begins and ends. It's like bump bump-ba bump bump (click)
The sound was based on this. I can't hear any "mouse clicks" in it. There are various quiet but brief high pitched squeaks and hisses in the background, perhaps your set up is foregrounding those for some reason.

I'm fine with it as it is, it's a freebie mod made by an amateur, containing freebie sound effects made by amateurs, after all. If it really bothers you, replace the file in the sounds folder with something else.
I really only notice it because I'm into recording music on my computer and I am constantly editing out my own mouse clicks. Also I was watching a youtube video of someone who was clicking a lot with their mouse anyway... and then the video ends and I still hear the clicking lol because it's in factorio. It's probably just my own peev.

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Re: [MOD 0.17] Industrial Revolution

Post by melechkibitzer » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:31 am

Deadlock989 wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:06 am
melechkibitzer wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:56 pm
Copper assemblers. There's the sound of mouse clicks in the recording of the sound effects loop for the copper assembler. There's either 2 or 3 mouse clicks depending on where the loop begins and ends. It's like bump bump-ba bump bump (click)
The sound was based on this. I can't hear any "mouse clicks" in it. There are various quiet but brief high pitched squeaks and hisses in the background, perhaps your set up is foregrounding those for some reason.

I'm fine with it as it is, it's a freebie mod made by an amateur, containing freebie sound effects made by amateurs, after all. If it really bothers you, replace the file in the sounds folder with something else.
Oh and I listened to that clip you linked and I hear the clicks in that one too. Yeah the guy probably didn't notice it because it's quiet (and very high pitched)

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Re: [MOD 0.17] Industrial Revolution

Post by Deadlock989 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:51 am

I will be uploading IR 1.0.7 sometime tomorrow or Sunday. It has a few new QOL machines in it, nothing terribly exciting though, and a few cosmetic tweaks, and some small bug fixes.

- Watchtowers, i.e. "burner radar", that scan remotely (at about 80% of electric radar speed) but don't reveal the map in nearby sectors.
- Robotowers, a 2x2 roboport that's unlockable a lot earlier in the Steel Age, and isn't gated behind refining, to ease personal logistics/trash woes.
- Orange filter inserters for the Iron Age.
- A chromed winged Racing Monowheel, faster than any other vehicle that isn't a choo choo.

Science progression has also been reworked somewhat, especially for military and "bonus" technologies, because I did a full playthrough last week and was pretty unhappy with the way a lot of the chained "upgrade" techs were way too accessible. Some crafting costs got adjusted, again, mostly military where costs increased, but a few non-military things are now cheaper.

This will be the last proper update for IR. I will continue to maintain the mod if there any breaking changes in the base game or new API features which could improve performance, or if someone finds a bug which is actually a bug, for at least the next six months, or a year, something like that, probably.


If anyone wants to take over maintenance of the Language Pack, let me know, I can add you as a collaborator on the mod portal and the Github repository for it.
Last edited by Deadlock989 on Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: [MOD 0.17] Industrial Revolution

Post by Bilka » Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:10 am

Deadlock989 wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:51 am
Watchtowers, i.e. "burner radar", that scan remotely (at about 80% of electric radar speed) but don't reveal the map in nearby sectors.
Care to explain why this instead of the exact opposite? I was hoping for nearby scanning (and also recall asking for that) :/
I'm an admin over at https://wiki.factorio.com. Feel free to contact me if there's anything wrong (or right) with it.

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