Criticism: Belt Immunity Equipment

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Criticism: Belt Immunity Equipment

Post by Yes-Man » Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:01 am

Hi all,

I'd like to discuss the Belt Immunity Equipment (BIE) for a second.

The general functionality is something I like. But the whole implementation of it grinds my gears.
It starts with the module size of 1x1, which messes up my power armor inventory. The only option is, to put a solar panel next to it. Which btw, delivers only 30% of the electricity needed by the BIE. Why not make as big as a battery? Maybe lower the energy requirement? Or even better, remove the module itself from the game and make it something like the 'turn of roboport' option. Could be bound to having an exo skeleton.

But right now, it doesn't bring me joy :/
Last edited by Yes-Man on Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Criticism: Belt Immunity Equipment

Post by Deadlock989 » Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:58 am

+1 for having it as a free quickbar toggle. It's crazy expensive to run for what it is.

+10 for making it look like roller skates.

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Re: Criticism: Belt Immunity Equipment

Post by Stimpatch » Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:48 pm

Deadlock989 wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:58 am
It's crazy expensive to run for what it is.
Indeed. Costs would be much more reasonable it the power is only consumed when you stand on belts, though.


Also, its nice that the size is 1x1, sadly there are next to no other Items to equip with a 1x1 size. Changes in both directions could help to improve inventory choices.
Last edited by Stimpatch on Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Criticism: Belt Immunity Equipment

Post by Honktown » Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:48 pm

As silly of an item as it is, it shouldn't take power imo. Moving on the belts never bother me enough to consider having a way to stop it (it's funny and clearly my fault more often than not). If someone wanted to just take out that part of the game, it should be "free"/non-intrusive. Like the axe upgrade. A toggle-able option once it's available.

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Re: Criticism: Belt Immunity Equipment

Post by Yes-Man » Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:12 pm

Stimpatch wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:48 pm
Also, its nice that the size is 1x1, sadly there are next to no other Items to equip with a 1x1 size. Changes in both directions could help to improve inventory choices.
What is nice about the 1x1 size? The solar panel next to it? It doesn't "align" with the other components available, at all.

Another idea: make the night vision goggles 2x1 and the BIE too. (Read: Decrease size of night vision module to fit the BIE.)

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Re: Criticism: Belt Immunity Equipment

Post by Ranakastrasz » Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:23 pm

Remove it.
Add the functionality to exoskeleton equipment.

Alternatively.
Remove it.
Add it as a toggle like personal roboport or exoskeleton equipment.

Alternatively Alternatively. Also my original suggestion before the equipment was added.
Remove it.
When standing on a belt, and not issueing a move command, automatically move to negate belt movement. If too slow, move at max speed to slow yourself down automatically.

Lets you stay in place, and also get speed boost from belts.
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Re: Criticism: Belt Immunity Equipment

Post by eradicator » Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:15 am

Ranakastrasz wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:23 pm
Remove it.
Add the functionality to exoskeleton equipment. [Alternatively. Remove it. Add it] as a toggle like personal roboport or exoskeleton equipment.
Alt-Alt-Alternative: Add has_belt_immunity as a runtime [RW] property to LuaPlayer and let mods deal with it.
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Re: Criticism: Belt Immunity Equipment

Post by Stimpatch » Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:58 am

Yes-Man wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:12 pm
What is nice about the 1x1 size? The solar panel next to it? It doesn't "align" with the other components available, at all.
Having small components other than Solar panels creates a group of "small equipment" items to equip and prevents players from looking down at solar panels and categorising them as "Fillers". To to make both items feel good, we need some 1x1 equipment items AND some 1x2. So i agree, Nightvision could be converted down, as some other components could be changed in size (like, make a mk1 Roboport 3x3 just to name one possibility)

If 1x1 components should not be fillers, maybe the inventory size could use a rework alltogether, so no more filler slots bother the player.

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Re: Criticism: Belt Immunity Equipment

Post by foamy » Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:15 pm

Stimpatch wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:58 am
Yes-Man wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:12 pm
What is nice about the 1x1 size? The solar panel next to it? It doesn't "align" with the other components available, at all.
Having small components other than Solar panels creates a group of "small equipment" items to equip and prevents players from looking down at solar panels and categorising them as "Fillers". To to make both items feel good, we need some 1x1 equipment items AND some 1x2. So i agree, Nightvision could be converted down, as some other components could be changed in size (like, make a mk1 Roboport 3x3 just to name one possibility)

If 1x1 components should not be fillers, maybe the inventory size could use a rework alltogether, so no more filler slots bother the player.
Honestly, both NV and BI should be the same size; either 1x1 or 1x2 (as batteries are). I'd like to run both in my late game power armour since it makes messing with belt layouts far less frustrating, but the sad one-tile gap, which can currently only be filled by a panel, really grinds at me.

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Re: Criticism: Belt Immunity Equipment

Post by Ranakastrasz » Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:32 pm

Admittedly, my opinion on the subject is that each tile should be graphivally twice the size, and all the 2x2 be shrunk to 1x1. And the squares changed to rectangles, such that the odd 1 by X gaps aren't a thing.

It's actually not fun having seriously different sizes or shapes for equipment.

Would be easier if belt immunity equipment was just a UI toggle instead.
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Re: Criticism: Belt Immunity Equipment

Post by pichutarius » Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:40 pm

alternatively, dont play belts. +1 for bots!

:lol:

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Re: Criticism: Belt Immunity Equipment

Post by foamy » Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:43 pm

pichutarius wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:40 pm
alternatively, dont play belts. +1 for bots!

:lol:
Glugh, bots.

They're so good they feel like cheating and they give pretty much every assembly layout a serious case of same-face. :(

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Re: Criticism: Belt Immunity Equipment

Post by Cribbit » Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:51 am

foamy wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:43 pm
pichutarius wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:40 pm
alternatively, dont play belts. +1 for bots!

:lol:
Glugh, bots.

They're so good they feel like cheating and they give pretty much every assembly layout a serious case of same-face. :(
This is exactly why I hate bots. For all the intricacies of the early game, you unlock bots and then factorio feels like a slightly more complicated cookie clicker.

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Re: Criticism: Belt Immunity Equipment

Post by Cribbit » Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:53 am

I'd love to see a "wheels!" module - 2x2 or exoskele sized - that:

1. Gives belt immunity
2. Increases the player's top speed, but gives them momentum (like a car)
3. Allows the player to run on train tracks for even higher top speed (I'm a train, yo)

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Re: Criticism: Belt Immunity Equipment

Post by foamy » Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:12 am

Cribbit wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:51 am
This is exactly why I hate bots. For all the intricacies of the early game, you unlock bots and then factorio feels like a slightly more complicated cookie clicker.
Beacons do much the same thing. I adore the space and resource efficiency they give over the long term, but the endless beacon ribbons are just irritating. Sure, there's the challenges of engineering the belts to drive them -- I'm pretty proud of my red circuit build -- but they're much more constricted and same-y compared to the free-form layouts that don't use them.

I've been giving serious thought to making a suggestion to change productivity modules so that they refund the inputs and have no speed penalty, and then removing beacons altogether.

Thus you have a choice: If you want more stuff, you use speed modules. If you want to make better use of your stuff, productivity. Better use of your power, efficiency. And it breaks the ribbon tyranny. And in so doing it removes one of the biggest advantages bots have: Being able to put arbitrarily complex ingredients into a confined space, because now there's far more opportunity to thread belts in and around your machines.

Plus it fixes the doofy prod/speed synergy.

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Re: Criticism: Belt Immunity Equipment

Post by Cribbit » Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:34 am

foamy wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:12 am
Beacons do much the same thing. I adore the space and resource efficiency they give over the long term, but the endless beacon ribbons are just irritating. Sure, there's the challenges of engineering the belts to drive them -- I'm pretty proud of my red circuit build -- but they're much more constricted and same-y compared to the free-form layouts that don't use them.

I've been giving serious thought to making a suggestion to change productivity modules so that they refund the inputs and have no speed penalty, and then removing beacons altogether.

Thus you have a choice: If you want more stuff, you use speed modules. If you want to make better use of your stuff, productivity. Better use of your power, efficiency. And it breaks the ribbon tyranny. And in so doing it removes one of the biggest advantages bots have: Being able to put arbitrarily complex ingredients into a confined space, because now there's far more opportunity to thread belts in and around your machines.

Plus it fixes the doofy prod/speed synergy.
It also fixes the sameness that you only ever use prod3 in buildings and speed3 in beacons and you have to beacon your prodded buildings.

Maybe if efficiency could still go in beacons?

It feels weird to say, but the sphagetti is the best part of the game.

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Re: Criticism: Belt Immunity Equipment

Post by foamy » Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:04 am

Cribbit wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:34 am
Maybe if efficiency could still go in beacons?
To what end, though? There's no point now because of the beacon energy use, and the space the beacons waste is not really desirable even if that was re-tuned, since power's pretty cheap all told.

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Re: Criticism: Belt Immunity Equipment

Post by Cribbit » Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:50 am

foamy wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:04 am
Cribbit wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:34 am
Maybe if efficiency could still go in beacons?
To what end, though? There's no point now because of the beacon energy use, and the space the beacons waste is not really desirable even if that was re-tuned, since power's pretty cheap all told.
Yeah. I still hate that despite the power increases, a prod3 + beacon assembler is only about 2x the power consumption of the same production from no-module. It should be more like 10-20x. The issue is the +spd itself doesn't increase power, only the +power consumption directly does. It should have the speed increase itself increase power use (so power is by items/s rather than just time) and then also add the direct +power consumption.

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Re: Criticism: Belt Immunity Equipment

Post by 5thHorseman » Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:54 am

foamy wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:15 pm
the sad one-tile gap, which can currently only be filled by a panel, really grinds at me.
You can also fill it with not filling it with anything. Having an empty spot above it is exactly the same as it being 1x2 in size.

However I agree it should toggle on and off and not be a thing. I guess though we should feel lucky they don't have "Blueprint backpack" and "Toolbelt" as armor inventory items as well.
pichutarius wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:40 pm
alternatively, dont play belts. +1 for bots!
Maybe they should make it so any bots flying over the player pushes him slightly in their direction...
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Re: Criticism: Belt Immunity Equipment

Post by foamy » Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:59 am

5thHorseman wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:54 am
foamy wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:15 pm
the sad one-tile gap, which can currently only be filled by a panel, really grinds at me.
You can also fill it with not filling it with anything. Having an empty spot above it is exactly the same as it being 1x2 in size.
Yes, except there's an empty space there. It's maddening!

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