Best-practice question: localizing mod names?

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Best-practice question: localizing mod names?

Post by Pi-C »

It is possible to localize the mod name as well as the mod description (just use the internal name of the mod as key under the [mod-description] or [mod-name]). This posting is not about how it works, but whether it should be done. Should it? :-)

I'm strongly in favor of localizing the mod description: Along with the name, that is what people will see when they've selected your mod in the game's mods manager. If anybody is playing the game in another than the default language, they usually do it because they don't feel comfortable in English and prefer to use another language. Having a localized mod description is actually helpful in this case.

I'm still in doubt about localizing the mod name, though. Sure, the localized name may be easier to understand than the default name! On the other hand, it may be confusing if somebody were looking for help on the forum. Just imagine somebody has an issue with whatever and is asked for the mods active in the game. An answer like "Rayxeüàlwus ölſawy" would only be useful to those who speak this nonexistent language I've just coined a phrase for -- while something like "The mod that makes everything better" would make it easier for everybody to find the mod.

I usually don't play games in any language than English (makes it easier to search for it if I have any questions), so I may be biased. My hope is therefore to learn of any other arguments for or against localized mod names, and whether there is something like an informally established standard.

(Please note: I've already found this poll on a similar question, and 50% of the respondents were in favor of localized mod names -- but that's only 50% out of a total of 6 people, so the poll is hardly representative. :-))
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Re: Best-practice question: localizing mod names?

Post by eradicator »

Not translating the describtion is bullshit. There's no merit to it. So the rest of this post is going to be about translation of the name.

My initial reaction would be: On average mod creators do not translate themselfs. Most mods have no translation at all. Therefore there can't be any "standard" on the situation.

Personally i haven't thought much about it. It's a string. It's translatable. So i translate it. I've also been in favour of making the whole portal multi-language capable, so that nobody is forced to deal with English if they don't want to.

Looked at the other thread, and someone mentioned "don't translate proper names". But what is a "proper" name? Is "Long Reach" proper just because it's the most downloaded mod in that category? Is "Bob's Assembling machines" or "Pyanodons Raw Ores" a completely proper name? I'd say no. They're clearly descriptions attached to the authors "proper" name.

Different languages have different tendencies towards using loanwords. Some languages try very hard to translate everything (i.e. French), other languages are almost fanatic in keeping the "original" word (i.e. German). And there's probably quite a few in the middle ground. So, why not just let the translators decide which language can sticks to the "original" name and which does not? For example my mods are prefixed with "Eradicator's" which i use verbatim in the German translation, but in Japanese i translate my own name because it's ultimaetly an English word which has no meaning in Japanese and mixing English letters with Japanese glyphs looks ugly.

Also native speakers of non-european languages are much less comfortable with reading English names. Imagine a Spanish native vs a Japanese native trying to read English. To the average Japanese person the very alphabet itself is already something they only encounter infrequently in daily life.

Then there's also the "player base" aspect. Factorio is developed in English and the mod portal is exclusively English both in it's presentation from Wube and in what mod authors generally produce. So anybody who's not very comfortable with English is already heavily incentivized against using mods at all. Do you want to expand on that cosmos, or do you want to try to break the barrier and make using mods more comfortable for non-english-speaking people too?
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For bug reports i'd trust that anybody capable of posting an English bugreport here on the forum is also capable of translating the mod names back. Pictures of errors have the English stacktrace. And if it's really urgent you can always ask them to upload mod-list.json, or change their locale for a screenshot or something...
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Pi-C wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:41 pm I usually don't play games in any language than English (makes it easier to search for it if I have any questions), so I may be biased.
I try to play games in the language they're produced in if i'm capable of that. More often than not that just "happens to be" English for "western" games and Japanese for JP games. But occasionally i play games in a different language if i feel it's more fun (for example i play the Borderlands series in Japanese because they did an awesome job at localizing it). Personally i find "more translation" is always better when viewed from outside the "English bubble".
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Re: Best-practice question: localizing mod names?

Post by Bilka »

Something I saw some mods do is that they translate the mod name, but add the English name in parenthesis. So a mod name was translated to "Meine beste Mod für Factorio (My best Factorio mod)". This helps with finding the mod online, making bug reports etc. The stacktrace of mods sadly uses the translated name, so if you get a bug report from a person who uses another language and there is another different translated mod name involved, and the internal mod name is very different, things can get hard to understand. (viewtopic.php?p=420564#p420564 is a tame example of this).



Who decided that Mod is feminine in German? I know it comes from Modifikation, but it feels really wrong.
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Re: Best-practice question: localizing mod names?

Post by Optera »

Mod is feminine in German!?
I always use "der Mod", "die Mod" sounds just like gender bullshit.
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Re: Best-practice question: localizing mod names?

Post by eradicator »

Bilka wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:55 pm Something I saw some mods do is that they translate the mod name, but add the English name in parenthesis.
That causes quite ugly clutter if i try it. putting it in the description would look better, but then it's useless for screenshots of the mod list.
clutter.png
clutter.png (23.37 KiB) Viewed 4262 times
Bilka wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:55 pm Who decided that Mod is feminine in German? I know it comes from Modifikation, but it feels really wrong.
It's a "Joghurt" thing, it takes all three genders depending on who you ask.
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Re: Best-practice question: localizing mod names?

Post by Pi-C »

Bilka wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:55 pm Something I saw some mods do is that they translate the mod name, but add the English name in parenthesis. So a mod name was translated to "Meine beste Mod für Factorio (My best Factorio mod)". This helps with finding the mod online, making bug reports etc. The stacktrace of mods sadly uses the translated name, so if you get a bug report from a person who uses another language and there is another different translated mod name involved, and the internal mod name is very different, things can get hard to understand. (viewtopic.php?p=420564#p420564 is a tame example of this).
May be a good idea to use the original name in parentheses -- except for the cluttered display shown by eradicator.

About the stacktrace: Wouldn't it be possible to use include the non-localized name somewhere in the error message? The user would know what mod caused the error and could report the error directly, if the author can be contacted; if the screenshot is posted on the forums, however, everybody (including those not familiar with that language) would have at least a clue what mod to look for.
Who decided that Mod is feminine in German? I know it comes from Modifikation, but it feels really wrong.
It must have been the same people who decided that it is "das Mail" (neutral) instead of "die E-Mail" (feminine), or that it should be "die Web-Site" (feminine) instead of "der Web-Site" (masculine). Then again, the first time I heard somebody talk about "die Modifikation", it made actually sense -- but it still feels so wrong!
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Re: Best-practice question: localizing mod names?

Post by steinio »

Optera wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:10 pm Mod is feminine in German!?
I always use "der Mod", "die Mod" sounds just like gender bullshit.
die Modifikation
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Re: Best-practice question: localizing mod names?

Post by Bilka »

Pi-C wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:37 pm About the stacktrace: Wouldn't it be possible to use include the non-localized name somewhere in the error message? The user would know what mod caused the error and could report the error directly, if the author can be contacted; if the screenshot is posted on the forums, however, everybody (including those not familiar with that language) would have at least a clue what mod to look for.
I think that is what the internal mod name is for, which works well in 99% of the cases and in the other 1% you can use the mod portal to translate from internal name to name.

Sorry about starting a Genus war, lol.
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Re: Best-practice question: localizing mod names?

Post by eradicator »

Pi-C wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:37 pm About the stacktrace: Wouldn't it be possible to use include the non-localized name somewhere in the error message?
The stacktrace nessecarily includes the internal name of the mod, which can be used to find the mod on the portal. Example: https://mods.factorio.com/query/er-stockpile
Pi-C wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:37 pm The user would know what mod caused the error and could report the error directly, if the author can be contacted
Only if the user reads the stacktrace (unlikely) and the internal name of the mod is meaningful (slightly less unlikely). From experience i'd say that 80% of mod releated errors are already correctly reported directly in the respective mod's thread (only counting errors that are reported at all).
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Re: Best-practice question: localizing mod names?

Post by Pi-C »

eradicator wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:31 pm Not translating the describtion is bullshit. There's no merit to it. So the rest of this post is going to be about translation of the name.
That's what I said. Also, I specifically requested just the other day that "[mod-description]" should be more publicly exposed in the localization tutorial. :-)
My initial reaction would be: On average mod creators do not translate themselfs. Most mods have no translation at all. Therefore there can't be any "standard" on the situation.
If the translators don't know that the mod name can be localized as well, they need to be nudged into the right direction -- in other words, the mod author or mod authoress :-D should provide a key for mod name (and description!) in the original localization file to help them. That could become an unofficial standard.
Span
I've also been in favour of making the whole portal multi-language capable, so that nobody is forced to deal with English if they don't want to.
I'd agree with adjusting the language to the one I've set in my browser if I would get to see every mod that could be of interest to me (which excludes mods that just pack localizations of different mods for a language I don't speak fluently, because they are obviously useless to me).
Looked at the other thread, and someone mentioned "don't translate proper names". But what is a "proper" name? Is "Long Reach" proper just because it's the most downloaded mod in that category? Is "Bob's Assembling machines" or "Pyanodons Raw Ores" a completely proper name? I'd say no. They're clearly descriptions attached to the authors "proper" name.
You shouldn't translate Bob's name! Sometimes, people change their own name if they move to another country. But it would be awkward if "Johannes' Mod" would suddenly become "John's mod" because somebody else translated it.
Different languages have different tendencies towards using loanwords. Some languages try very hard to translate everything (i.e. French), other languages are almost fanatic in keeping the "original" word (i.e. German). And there's probably quite a few in the middle ground. So, why not just let the translators decide which language can sticks to the "original" name and which does not?
I only speak German and English (kind of) fluently, and I know just enough Spanish to perfectly misunderstand short news reports. :-) So, I don't have any control about what people who translate my texts into a language I don't know may do with them. I already have to put my trust in that they won't distort my meaning too much (they will distort it -- that's the nature of translations, because translating means interpreting, and rephrasing). But (see my second paragraph), in order to decide whether they should change the name, they need to know that they could change it -- so I would have to include the keys in the first place.
Also native speakers of non-european languages are much less comfortable with reading English names. Imagine a Spanish native vs a Japanese native trying to read English. To the average Japanese person the very alphabet itself is already something they only encounter infrequently in daily life.
Not every European language uses the Latin alphabet. :-)
But I know what you mean -- I couldn't make head or tail of the first language name of the supported mod languages in your signature. Now that you've mentioned Japanese so often, I guess it could be … Korean? (Just kidding!)
Then there's also the "player base" aspect. Factorio is developed in English and the mod portal is exclusively English both in it's presentation from Wube and in what mod authors generally produce. So anybody who's not very comfortable with English is already heavily incentivized against using mods at all. Do you want to expand on that cosmos, or do you want to try to break the barrier and make using mods more comfortable for non-english-speaking people too?
Definitely not -- that's why I started this whole discussion! For myself, I'd hardly ever consider playing in another language than English because if the original language was English, I'd know enough of it to recognize a clumsy translation even if I don't know the original. A good translation is like a piece of art, you have to give a lot of thought and love to it and still won't be able to always get it right. (Don't want to get over as arrogant: I know very well that I may mess up gloriously myself, that's why I haven't dared translating that one particular mod yet!)
For bug reports i'd trust that anybody capable of posting an English bugreport here on the forum is also capable of translating the mod names back.
Sorry, but that's a bad idea! Just input some text into Google's translator, translate it to three or four different languages and back to the original -- and it will be nothing like what you entered at the start! They should look up the original name instead of translating it.
Personally i find "more translation" is always better when viewed from outside the "English bubble".
I obviously agree with you (otherwise, why should I even care about localizing my mods?), more translations mean more exposure -- be it of mods or the vanilla game. My only problem is how to get it "right" -- so that the interests of player, modders, and developers are preserved. (Speaking of the developers: As we know from the FFFs, they are an international bunch. Don't you think it would inhibit their work if everybody just wrote code -- think variable names, or names of entities etc. -- in their first language? Having a common language is an advantage there!)
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Hey, I opened this thread, so I will read every reply -- even though it may take some time and I may not be able to respond immediately! :-)
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Re: Best-practice question: localizing mod names?

Post by Pi-C »

Bilka wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:46 pm
Pi-C wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:37 pm About the stacktrace: Wouldn't it be possible to use include the non-localized name somewhere in the error message? The user would know what mod caused the error and could report the error directly, if the author can be contacted; if the screenshot is posted on the forums, however, everybody (including those not familiar with that language) would have at least a clue what mod to look for.
I think that is what the internal mod name is for, which works well in 99% of the cases and in the other 1% you can use the mod portal to translate from internal name to name.
Oh, I didn't use this before, this should be helpful!
Sorry about starting a Genus war, lol.
No problem. But try starting a genius war next time! :-D
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Re: Best-practice question: localizing mod names?

Post by Optera »

About "More languages is always better".
I tend to reject pull requests from translators by now. Simply because I only speak English and German and those are the only ones I can maintain myself.
For example I recently added features to LEP+ but couldn't add translations for the old Korean and Russian locales I accepted over a year ago.

With the way mods can depend on another, having language mods for one or multiple mods seems like the best way to go.
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Re: Best-practice question: localizing mod names?

Post by Pi-C »

Optera wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:48 pm About "More languages is always better".
I tend to reject pull requests from translators by now. Simply because I only speak English and German and those are the only ones I can maintain myself.
For example I recently added features to LEP+ but couldn't add translations for the old Korean and Russian locales I accepted over a year ago.
That could be a problem!
With the way mods can depend on another, having language mods for one or multiple mods seems like the best way to go.
Somebody was so kind to translate one of my mods to Russian. It was published in a such a localization pack for several mods, with a note on the info page that it would be appreciated if mod authors extract the Russian localization and include it in their mods because he doesn't intend to maintain the mod for too long. So, whether you include localizations yourself or let mods do it -- there's always the risk that the translation may get out of sync with updates to your mod.
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Re: Best-practice question: localizing mod names?

Post by Pi-C »

steinio wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:41 pm
Optera wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:10 pm Mod is feminine in German!?
I always use "der Mod", "die Mod" sounds just like gender bullshit.
die Modifikation
der Moderator
How about "die Moderatorin"? :-)
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Re: Best-practice question: localizing mod names?

Post by Optera »

Pi-C wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:21 pm
Optera wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:48 pm About "More languages is always better".
I tend to reject pull requests from translators by now. Simply because I only speak English and German and those are the only ones I can maintain myself.
For example I recently added features to LEP+ but couldn't add translations for the old Korean and Russian locales I accepted over a year ago.
That could be a problem!
With the way mods can depend on another, having language mods for one or multiple mods seems like the best way to go.
Somebody was so kind to translate one of my mods to Russian. It was published in a such a localization pack for several mods, with a note on the info page that it would be appreciated if mod authors extract the Russian localization and include it in their mods because he doesn't intend to maintain the mod for too long. So, whether you include localizations yourself or let mods do it -- there's always the risk that the translation may get out of sync with updates to your mod.
Difference here. The translator CAN maintain it. I can not.
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Re: Best-practice question: localizing mod names?

Post by Pi-C »

Optera wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:49 pm Difference here. The translator CAN maintain it. I can not.
I can't maintain the Russian translation myself because I don't know the language. I can include a translation provided by somebody else, but if any strings would have to be added or changed, I couldn't do that. So whether the localization file is included in my own mod or in an external mod pack doesn't make any difference: Once the translator disappears (because he has no time to maintain the mod anymore, or has lost interest in Factorio etc.), the localization for that language will remain without a maintainer until somebody else takes over. Chances for somebody volunteering are naturally higher for those languages that are spoken by many people -- e.g., many people speaking Russian seem to be active in the modding scene, so it's more likely that somebody offers help with that than finding somebody who knows the game, is a user of your mod, and wants to translate it to, say, Wolof, which only has just about 5.5 million native speakers to begin with.
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Re: Best-practice question: localizing mod names?

Post by Pi-C »

As it is, the whole point of the discussion is moot. Somebody told me, and it can be verified easily, that localized mod name and description are only displayed in the game's mods manager if you're selecting the mod in the right tab ("Manage", the list of installed mods). If you're selecting the mod in the center tab ("Install", the list of available mods), the default (non-localized) versions are shown.

So, somebody who doesn't speak the first language of a mod doesn't have a chance to read the description in his own language until he has installed it -- but he likely won't install it because he doesn't know what the mod does (assuming it has no thumbnail). Catch 22!
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