Landfill needs a change. 20 Stone for 1 tile? Ridiculous!

Place to discuss the game balance, recipes, health, enemies mining etc.
Littleman9Mew2
Manual Inserter
Manual Inserter
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:20 am
Contact:

Landfill needs a change. 20 Stone for 1 tile? Ridiculous!

Post by Littleman9Mew2 » Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:47 pm

So I'm gonna lay down an idea. When landfill was intially introduced, there was a bug where you could fill in 4 tiles instead of just 1 with landfill. Which made things a lot easier to accomplish with filling in water. However, the recipe was never changed all too much when it was updated to fix the bug. (RIP Grass-fish) So it's something that should be addressed. While I'm not asking much, landfill should get a change as to how much stone is required.

20 Raw stone is quite a lot, to give an idea: An iron chest has 32 storage slots. Stone can stack up to 50 in vanilla. How much landfill would you get out of it? 80. 80 Is not a lot of tiles to cover, and since you have to fill each water tile to build structures on the ground, it adds up very quickly. A small pond can easily cost thousands upon thousands of raw stone to fill in. Considering concrete is cheaper and even got an update for it in terms of a new look and a small change in recipe. Landfill should get a similar upgrade treatment to it's look, or recipe.

Solutions:
- Make landfill cheaper, knock it down from 20 down to 5, maybe increase crafting time from 0.5 seconds to 1 second. Makes an iron chests worth be 320 instead of 80

- Give us more landfill per craft. So instead of 1 we get 4 or 5 per craft.

- Change the recipe altogether, it's been in the game for quite a while. I mean, it would nice to have a discussion about it.

- NEW IDEA: Also allow us to remove land to get landfill too? idk.


What do you think?
A good idea? A silly idea?
Or should something else be done?

Koub
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 5032
Joined: Fri May 30, 2014 8:54 am
Contact:

Re: Landfill needs a change. 20 Stone for 1 tile? Ridiculous!

Post by Koub » Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:37 am

[Koub] Moving this to balancing.
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

User avatar
darkfrei
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 2156
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:11 pm
Contact:

Re: Landfill needs a change. 20 Stone for 1 tile? Ridiculous!

Post by darkfrei » Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:24 pm

Or you need 2 items to fill the shallow water, 3 for normal water tiles and 4 items to fill deep water tiles.

User avatar
Oktokolo
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 674
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:45 pm
Contact:

Re: Landfill needs a change. 20 Stone for 1 tile? Ridiculous!

Post by Oktokolo » Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:56 pm

The huge amount of stone required for landfill comes from the depth of Nauvis' oceans and lakes. You have to fill them all the way up to be able to walk or build on them. ;)

But maybe, landfill should only be usefull to fill shallow waters anyway (and then would of course be cheaper). Platforms/pontons would be more appropriate for the deep blue sea and could be attacked by spitters, worms - and the biter-spitting leviathan of course.

With non-cheaty shallow water in the game, being able to dig moats would also make sense. Shallow water moats would not completely deny biter movement but only slow them down a bit and look good in front of your walls.

Pi-C
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 313
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:13 am
Contact:

Re: Landfill needs a change. 20 Stone for 1 tile? Ridiculous!

Post by Pi-C » Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:22 pm

Littleman9Mew2 wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:47 pm
- Make landfill cheaper, knock it down from 20 down to 5, maybe increase crafting time from 0.5 seconds to 1 second. Makes an iron chests worth be 320 instead of 80

- Give us more landfill per craft. So instead of 1 we get 4 or 5 per craft.
I'm against it. Stone is one of the resources I've never been running out of. Just to the contrary -- stones are there in abundance. Sure, turn them into bricks and use the bricks in concrete and make refined concrete to get rid of stone -- but you can also use landfill as a sink for stone.
- Change the recipe altogether, it's been in the game for quite a while. I mean, it would nice to have a discussion about it.
Did you give Wood to landfill a try yet? You get one landfill per 20 wood, and the recipe exists beside the vanilla stone-to-landfill recipe. So, should you ever be short of stone, you can dispose of excess wood in a meaningful way.

Still too expensive? Try Cheaper landfill instead! You may find it too cheap, though (1:1 stone/landfill ratio, according to the mod description).
A good mod deserves a good changelog. Here's a tutorial (WIP) about Factorio's way too strict changelog syntax!

FuryoftheStars
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 388
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:01 pm
Contact:

Re: Landfill needs a change. 20 Stone for 1 tile? Ridiculous!

Post by FuryoftheStars » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:01 pm

I don’t feel as though landfill needs to be made cheaper.
darkfrei wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:24 pm
Or you need 2 items to fill the shallow water, 3 for normal water tiles and 4 items to fill deep water tiles.
While I know most would be against it, I’m for this as well, though I’d also go for something like deep water requires turning the immediate adjacent tiles to shallow (non-walkable) and the like. :P So I’d probably start my ratios around 1 landfill for the shallow (walkable) tile, and go from there.

User avatar
BlueTemplar
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 1547
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Landfill needs a change. 20 Stone for 1 tile? Ridiculous!

Post by BlueTemplar » Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:30 pm

It's also 1/8 stone per rail tile,
2 stone per brick,
4 stone per concrete,
8 stone per advanced concrete.

Is 20 stone per landfill that expensive ?

Also, I don't really get the complaint about landfill storage : landfill itself stacks to 100 units (so 2k stone worth...)
And why wouldn't you use an assembling machine to make it?

User avatar
Ranakastrasz
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 2016
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:05 am
Contact:

Re: Landfill needs a change. 20 Stone for 1 tile? Ridiculous!

Post by Ranakastrasz » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:49 pm

I will point out that somehow you can get 500 easily, thousands more often from any specific tile of stone ore. The question is why it isn't MORE expensive.

Honestly, the only reason I ever thought it was expensive was that back when it was just a mod, it was 5 stone per tile.
My Mods:
Modular Armor Revamp - V16
Large Chests - V16
Agent Orange - V16
Flare - V16
Easy Refineries - V16

User avatar
5thHorseman
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 759
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Landfill needs a change. 20 Stone for 1 tile? Ridiculous!

Post by 5thHorseman » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:13 pm

Water is one of the few restrictive parts of the terrain. It should be expensive to remove.
"So you completed the game with a spaghetti factory? Well I hand crafted a rocket and threw it into space with my bare hands!"

kbk
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Landfill needs a change. 20 Stone for 1 tile? Ridiculous!

Post by kbk » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:18 am

5thHorseman wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:13 pm
Water is one of the few restrictive parts of the terrain. It should be expensive to remove.
Trees are also a restrictive part of the terrain but pretty much not that expensive to remove via cheap splash damage sources like grenades. In terms of operational costs landfill takes most resources per tile.

I guess landfill (and cliffs) cost better be expressed with mining time, not with resources.

Pi-C
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 313
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:13 am
Contact:

Re: Landfill needs a change. 20 Stone for 1 tile? Ridiculous!

Post by Pi-C » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:30 am

kbk wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:18 am
I guess landfill (and cliffs) cost better be expressed with mining time, not with resources.
Landfill, OK. But cliffs? How do you mine cliffs? You just drop some explosives on them …
A good mod deserves a good changelog. Here's a tutorial (WIP) about Factorio's way too strict changelog syntax!

User avatar
5thHorseman
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 759
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Landfill needs a change. 20 Stone for 1 tile? Ridiculous!

Post by 5thHorseman » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:06 am

kbk wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:18 am
5thHorseman wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:13 pm
Water is one of the few restrictive parts of the terrain. It should be expensive to remove.
Trees are also a restrictive part of the terrain but pretty much not that expensive to remove via cheap splash damage sources like grenades. In terms of operational costs landfill takes most resources per tile.
While true, having a diversity in terrain challenges is a positive in my book, not a negative.

And cliffs make me sad. They're too annoying to keep and too easy to remove. I just turn them off in settings :(
"So you completed the game with a spaghetti factory? Well I hand crafted a rocket and threw it into space with my bare hands!"

Pi-C
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 313
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:13 am
Contact:

Re: Landfill needs a change. 20 Stone for 1 tile? Ridiculous!

Post by Pi-C » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:19 am

5thHorseman wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:06 am
And cliffs make me sad. They're too annoying to keep and too easy to remove. I just turn them off in settings :(
Don't you just love it when you want to extend your main bus and then there's a cliff right in the middle of it -- before you have cliff explosives? :-D
A good mod deserves a good changelog. Here's a tutorial (WIP) about Factorio's way too strict changelog syntax!

kbk
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Landfill needs a change. 20 Stone for 1 tile? Ridiculous!

Post by kbk » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:04 pm

Pi-C wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:30 am
kbk wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:18 am
I guess landfill (and cliffs) cost better be expressed with mining time, not with resources.
Landfill, OK. But cliffs? How do you mine cliffs? You just drop some explosives on them …
Exactly this. Imagine a funny custom action sequence (with temporary loss of player entity movement control during "mining", as usual) that looks like player/drone first carefully positions an explosive barrel at the center of a cliff or throws some explosives around, then moves away to safety and fires for controlled demolition. That'd be great! At least it should be for at least a couple of times, I guess...

Mur
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 48
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:52 pm
Contact:

Re: Landfill needs a change. 20 Stone for 1 tile? Ridiculous!

Post by Mur » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:02 am

This is a big concern for me because I am design a self expanding factory with rail and it will have the ability to landfill and go over water. Right now for one frame (about 200 tracks long and high on the inside) it will take -AT LEAST- 13k landfill which will be 260k stone! And that is just the barebones outside which consists of track, roboports and power and not clear filling in the whole middle section for ONE frame.

gabberworld
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:06 pm
Contact:

Re: Landfill needs a change. 20 Stone for 1 tile? Ridiculous!

Post by gabberworld » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:26 am

if you not play in multiplayer then you can easily change this inside recipe.lua

Code: Select all

  {
    type = "recipe",
    name = "landfill",
    energy_required = 0.5,
    enabled = false,
    category = "crafting",
    ingredients =
    {
      {"stone", 20} -- 20 stones used for craft
    },
    result= "landfill",
    result_count = 1 -- how many are made
  },

Mur
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 48
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:52 pm
Contact:

Re: Landfill needs a change. 20 Stone for 1 tile? Ridiculous!

Post by Mur » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:01 pm

gabberworld wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:26 am
if you not play in multiplayer then you can easily change this inside recipe.lua
This isn't a proper fix for me.

mrvn
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 3679
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:10 am
Contact:

Re: Landfill needs a change. 20 Stone for 1 tile? Ridiculous!

Post by mrvn » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:15 pm

Since you are writing a mod for your self expanding factory simply modify the landfill recipe or depend on one of the cheaper landfill mods out there.

As a player of seablock and pyblock I can feel your anguish about how much landfill you need. On the other hand I've probably produced millions of landfill by now. 13k landfill is about the amount I carry around in my inventory usually (seablock sets the stacksize to 1000).

Mur
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 48
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:52 pm
Contact:

Re: Landfill needs a change. 20 Stone for 1 tile? Ridiculous!

Post by Mur » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:47 pm

mrvn wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:15 pm
Since you are writing a mod for your self expanding factory simply modify the landfill recipe or depend on one of the cheaper landfill mods out there.

As a player of seablock and pyblock I can feel your anguish about how much landfill you need. On the other hand I've probably produced millions of landfill by now. 13k landfill is about the amount I carry around in my inventory usually (seablock sets the stacksize to 1000).
Our intent is to use as little mods as possible and as vanilla as possible. For this reason the only two mods that are being used are recursive blueprints and LTN, and it is my hope that LTN will be incorporated into factorio eventually.

The factory isn't a mod but a BP.

User avatar
5thHorseman
Filter Inserter
Filter Inserter
Posts: 759
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Landfill needs a change. 20 Stone for 1 tile? Ridiculous!

Post by 5thHorseman » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:31 am

Mur wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:47 pm
Our intent is to use as little mods as possible and as vanilla as possible.
But you want something that's different than vanilla. You disagree with the developers on this one thing. That's pretty much the purpose of modding, to have things your way instead of the way the developers wanted. You either want landfill to be vanilla, or you want it your way. You can't have both.
"So you completed the game with a spaghetti factory? Well I hand crafted a rocket and threw it into space with my bare hands!"

Post Reply

Return to “Balancing”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users