Friday Facts #309 - Controversial opinions

[5thHorseman]

Controversion Opinion of my own: Get rid of "achievements" again.

No way. If it wasn't for Lazy Bastard I'd have quit playing years ago. It caused me to play the game in a way that I thought I'd not like, and instead it opened my eyes to what I now consider "real" Factorio.

[gorothdablade]

what about having certain achievements be locked behind the no import config.

Controversion Opinion of my own: Get rid of "achievements" again. All they do is cause people to whine when they're disabled due to mods/commands/editor/cosmic rays. Ofc they also whine when certain achievements get easier/harder due to changes in game mechanics. The dev time wasted on these psychoactive carrots would probably have been enough to complete spidertron *and* the space platform extension.

Achievements appeal to a special kind of player, getting rid of them wouldn't get that tech time back... What I would like to see (or get pointed out to me) is community driven achievements (little 'a'). I know about some (like rocket per minute, 10 rocket per minute). but crazy goals are kinda what I game for. Like Currently I am on a default death world trying to not have a pollution cloud at all (all hand mining, race to solar power day factory, all furnaces get their own chunk), 5 hours in and I still haven't been attacked, and I have a solar powered radar/science.

The question never is why... the question is WHY NOT?

[gorothdablade]

A lot of the ideas presented in the FFF completely change the game. They may seem simple up front, but simple ideas have a way of avalanching down the iterative pipeline. There are even more crazy and fun ideas to explore, but I think there needs to be a new platform to see how they end up playing out, if you know what I mean.

that place is called the mod'ing community... so, now I want to call for each of these to be introduced as mods... ...

I should get into modding,

[Hiladdar]

Twinsen,

To address your thoughts on blueprints.

I understand your reasoning behind wishing to only have blueprints as a MODed feature, allowing (especially a new player) To stamp down a whole factory from a blueprint (I've seen such blueprint books) Defeats the whole point to Factorio.

I think this is typical "designers overcontrol syndrom" (or whatever you want to call it). I don't think that's a good way to design games. To me the blueprint system is one of the deciding features that makes factorio so unique where every other game (minecraft, etc) constantly forces you to build the exact same layout over and over and over again. By hand. I can't describe the agony. ...

I can not understate the issue of "designers over-control syndrome", and from where I sit it is a very bad way to design and manage games. In about 45 years of computer gaming, starting with Trek73 compiled on a PDP-8, I have seen many games ruined with designer over-control syndrome. Some of them I used to play, some of them I just avoided due to word of mouth. The ones I used to play, today I will not touch them with a 10ft pole.

What I have observed is the developers end up playing "wack-a-mole" as part of their"designer over-control syndrome" trying to turn an open sandbox game into a linear progression type of game by curtailing features and functionality, while the player community comes up with workarounds to previous functionality. In time the game becomes bug ridden and unplayable.

I'll not list the developers, their screen names, games, franchises, nor companies guilty of "designer over-control syndrome", for two reasons. First listing the could derail this thread. Second, since I don't have nothing nice to say about them, best to just not mention them.

What I would like to do is propose several options the blueprint issue, on the set up screen have a setting which is as simple as, "Allow importing and exporting of blueprints" By default it is set to false. But after the first rocket launch have it reset to true, for both the current game, and on the set up screen for subservient maps. The other alternative is to have it locked behind some sort of research, probably involving productivity science packs.

Hiladdar

[jodokus31]

what about having certain achievements be locked behind the no import config.

Controversion Opinion of my own: Get rid of "achievements" again. All they do is cause people to whine when they're disabled due to mods/commands/editor/cosmic rays. Ofc they also whine when certain achievements get easier/harder due to changes in game mechanics. The dev time wasted on these psychoactive carrots would probably have been enough to complete spidertron *and* the space platform extension.

I disagree, to get rid of achievements. I'm not a steam player, but the achievements can give another point-of-view to the game instead of just launching a rocket. There could be more crazy achievement, atm 100% is reached in like 9h by the speedrunners (which i would treat as some kind of benchmark), some achievements are very hard, which is ok.
But ok, i also cannot estimate the whining part

What I would like to do is propose several options the blueprint issue, on the set up screen have a setting which is as simple as, "Allow importing and exporting of blueprints" By default it is set to false. But after the first rocket launch have it reset to true, for both the current game, and on the set up screen for subservient maps. The other alternative is to have it locked behind some sort of research, probably involving productivity science packs.

I think, it would be enough, if you have to opt-in for it somehow, like research queue or a game setting. Also, export should work always, I think.
Just to give a sense, that its not a recommended feature for first play through.

[mrvn]

But that people are pissed because they need to install a mod shows exactly that the change would have an impact to trading! Because people who want it all easy have the same if not more reluctance to install a mod as well. And BOTH importer and exporter need to install the mod before they can trade.

...

The people not trading but still needing import/export will be pissed.

I know. But why do you think the "trading" group is different in that respect to the "not trading" group? If one group thinks twice before installing the mod, the other group will do too.

And that shoots down your theory that it won't make a difference with the "trading" group if trading needs a mod install

The trading group will be pissed too but that part would be intentional. But next to finding and downloading N blueprints installing the extra mod isn't such a hassle. So they will trade just as much. That part won't change, at least not noticeable.

[meganothing]

And besides removing the library wouldn't even solve the problem. It'd just lead to people posting pictures instead of strings (many already do), and other people rebuilding those pictures in their games. Or just start sharing savegame files of empty maps with blueprints. As a designer you have to accept that people want to and will enjoy your game in ways other than you originally intended. You can try to "guide" people, but you shouldn't put them on an iron leash. But this is clearly something you already know, so maybe you just forgot about it .

The developers obviously don't think import should be impossible, since they mention the mod as a simple way. This doesn't seem like an iron leash, but a way to guide people by putting a "speed bump" in the way of the simple library copy. Installing a mod, copying through save games, copying by hand are all ways to make copying from the internet a little less easy.

Whether that "speed bump" is able to change the situation measurably is a different (and the central) question.

I would prefer a warning sign the first time someone uses string import, warning that copying from the internet is the best way to remove all puzzles from a game that is about puzzles. I think it is better to educate people instead of sublimely manipulating them to do the right things, there are already too many games doing the manipulating.

Case in point. When I began playing computer games, I save-scummed in RPGs. Maybe I would have ignored the first warning telling me that save-scumming is bad for my enjoyment of the game, but even then I might have realised much sooner that I had adopted a bad habit. Instead the realization took many many years.

[meganothing]

The Game start option of allowing or blocking importing bp's would probably be the best way to implement this as opposed to moving the code off into an "Official" mod.

IF (and I stress IF) they did that, what about having certain achievements be locked behind the no import config. Would make Spoon runs much more difficult.

I agree that an option with default off would be a good way. The hover text could even have a warning about copying from the internet.

I'm not sure the achievement lock would help much since I would assume most players start hunting for achievements only after having played the game through once or twice and that would often be too late to stop that detrimental habit.

[gorothdablade]

The Game start option of allowing or blocking importing bp's would probably be the best way to implement this as opposed to moving the code off into an "Official" mod.

IF (and I stress IF) they did that, what about having certain achievements be locked behind the no import config. Would make Spoon runs much more difficult.

I agree that an option with default off would be a good way. The hover text could even have a warning about copying from the internet.

I'm not sure the achievement lock would help much since I would assume most players start hunting for achievements only after having played the game through once or twice and that would often be too late to stop that detrimental habit.

I don't think that it is a detrimental habit, pulling in blue prints is one the ways that I learned how optimize my own blue prints (I started with pulling in a few here and there, but now I use a sandbox world to craft my own, and import them to my own runs).

I do think that achievements are there to encourage players to try out different ways to play the game. Ohhh so you beat the game on peaceful in 50 hours, do you think you could do it with enemies? You did it with enemies, now try to do it faster. Ok this time, don't build anything by hand.

Having a no imported blueprints (or even a no blue prints at all) achievement, Would encourage players to try the game a little differently than normal. They may find that they like it more, or learn that they appreciate the other way better. Either way they have more play time on the game, and get more out of it.

Now I kinda want a steam achievement for this or any game for installing and playing a mod (possibly limited to dev-selected few or community driven selection).

[mrvn]

The Game start option of allowing or blocking importing bp's would probably be the best way to implement this as opposed to moving the code off into an "Official" mod.

IF (and I stress IF) they did that, what about having certain achievements be locked behind the no import config. Would make Spoon runs much more difficult.

I agree that an option with default off would be a good way. The hover text could even have a warning about copying from the internet.

I'm not sure the achievement lock would help much since I would assume most players start hunting for achievements only after having played the game through once or twice and that would often be too late to stop that detrimental habit.

Per default you only get the blueprint import icon when you have researched the techs for it. You have to open the beluprint library and import from there before that. So the option already is hidden for new users. Plus ghosts won't get build without the techs or a mod.

[MrBuisson]

About shortcuts : ctrl+click on something open a define shortcut window for the something in question. Can’t have it easier to configure for the final user, and it allow to have low amount a pre-configured shortcut. It’s not new, people using Altium Designer know what I mean.
Like ctrl+Click on train give you auto-pilot shortcut configuration. CTRL+Click on Build window Element let you build one of this element - or select one of this kind from inventory maybe... it depends on what the programmer consider natural when looking to set a shortcut for “that”

[meganothing]

I'm not sure the achievement lock would help much since I would assume most players start hunting for achievements only after having played the game through once or twice and that would often be too late to stop that detrimental habit.

I don't think that it is a detrimental habit, pulling in blue prints is one the ways that I learned how optimize my own blue prints (I started with pulling in a few here and there, but now I use a sandbox world to craft my own, and import them to my own runs).

I do think that achievements are there to encourage players to try out different ways to play the game. Ohhh so you beat the game on peaceful in 50 hours, do you think you could do it with enemies? You did it with enemies, now try to do it faster. Ok this time, don't build anything by hand.

Having a no imported blueprints (or even a no blue prints at all) achievement, Would encourage players to try the game a little differently than normal. They may find that they like it more, or learn that they appreciate the other way better. Either way they have more play time on the game, and get more out of it.

The detrimental habit is when someone new to the game starts to use designs from the internet before even having thoughts of his own about a solution. It is not about players who already built a solution and now try to optimize it. That is my point, and that is also why I think achievements are too late. You yourself bring the example that achievement hunting normally starts after a first play-through. A no-imported blueprints achievement is useless because it is too late.

[AndrewIRL]

It's our job as developers to incentivise the player to play the game properly. If importing blueprints is obviously so bad, why are we providing this tool as a vanilla tool? Not only that but we also place it in the "tools" section, as a shortcut in the main screen, as if you are expected to use it often.

The only problem I see here is in the "shortcut in the main screen, as if you are expected to use it often." part. The blueprint import feature could be treated the same as the research queue, an option you tick in the map settings. People who want it can have it, new players don't get it up front and center.

Weapons shouldn't lock on
Biters should be more aggressive, and probe your defenses

Combat is my least favorite part of the game currently. Smarter biters could make it more interesting. Actually having to aim would add some skill although I imagine the biters would have to be weakened to compensate.

[gorothdablade]

The detrimental habit is when someone new to the game starts to use designs from the internet before even having thoughts of his own about a solution. It is not about players who already built a solution and now try to optimize it. That is my point, and that is also why I think achievements are too late. You yourself bring the example that achievement hunting normally starts after a first play-through. A no-imported blueprints achievement is useless because it is too late.

Thats not really a habit, thats just a style of play. Sure it isn't the way I (and most likely you) find to be fun. But it may be the way someone else does. Having an achievement that requires a full play through with out imported blue prints would require the player to play from start to launch building everything by hand. For some players the presence of this achievement would be the only reason they ever do this. For other players, they would get this achievement on their first play through. And unless you are using a specific seed with a specific bp, you likely are just getting modular bps (one for a yellow belt filling furnace, one for making a circuit assembler, etc...). They then still have to manage integrating these piecemeal bps into their specific map. This integration may just be the level of complexity they are comfortable with.

[mathturtle]

shortcut to toggle manual mode in trains

YES PLEASE!

I'm understand the exploit for returning ingredients.... but it's such an edge case that I'm with Rseding: bring it back. All it does is punish new players for not knowing. What can you get with it? A few free blue circuits at the cost of a lot of manual work? If it makes something with modded crazy modules broken... I don't care since I already have modded crazy modules

[Ranger_Aurelien]

Achievements appeal to a special kind of player, getting rid of them wouldn't get that tech time back... What I would like to see (or get pointed out to me) is community driven achievements (little 'a'). I know about some (like rocket per minute, 10 rocket per minute). but crazy goals are kinda what I game for.

...

The question never is why... the question is WHY NOT?

I have wondered where Airat9000 got these 243 Achievements; it stuck out in my memory:

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=71532

[fusionfan]

I love this game dearly. You developers are awesome.

_however_

You have reached a point of the noise level, where every new change has the potential to actually make things worse. Just fix the bugs and release. Also, don't worry about what players "should" be doing. One of the most awesome things in factorio is that you can just do whatever you want. And let that be.

- BPs.

Why do you mock a person who asks for a recipe for artillery shell? Why are you being mean? Are you shaming someone for asking for help? Factorio is about problem solving. If they chose to solve by asking help, let them do it! You have no idea about the person and their reasons. One person, who asks a question _you think_ they shouldn't be asking and alas you want to remove an important fun feature? You remove the BPs and people will post a screenshot and then you can copy it. Same result (you didn't design it yourself) and much more painful. If you want to skip the desing part _for whatever reason_, make it easy.

When I was a novice, I didn't understand what blueprints were for, or how they worked. I did the puzzle of putting things together myself. As I was approaching x k SPM megabases I realized that my designs are not always the best and alas others have better ones. Why should I reinvent the wheel? The scale and scope changed. The challenge is no longer to figure out how to feed X1...XN to get Y. It is throughput, balancing, logistics, etc. Say I want to make 1 full blue belt of blue circuits. That takes some resources. I don't really want to bother figuring out how exactly to get the required amount of red circuits, how to best set up beacons and modules, doing calculations in excel, or which is the optimum smelter line. I enjoy just being able to import BPs and put these blocks together. Instead of 1 of this plus 1 of that I now think in 10 belts of this plus 5 belts of that... It is still a challenge. It is still fun. You see it is still factorio, just with larger pieces.

Another example. First megabase. Power becoming a problem, want to try nuclear. It takes quite a while to figure out how to make a proper nuclear power plant, that doesn't waste fuel. OR I can import a blueprint, put it in, it is powering my base and while the base is running and research & production progressing I can study the power plant in action, appreciate the design, etc. Had I have to build it myself, wouldn't have been as much fun. Would have just sized up oil + solid fuel power plant.

Beginners won't read your FFFs and give feedback. Factorio appeals to a special type of person. The one that likes design and problem solving. So what will new players do? They will figure it out. They google. Go to youtube, check a tutiorial. My god, check a BP. Let them have options. Don't try to tell people how they "should" play the game. If they can't, well maybe this game isn't for them. I don't play FPS or moba games because my reflexes suck. Similarly, factorio isn't for everyone. And it shouldn't be. It's a niche. It is so sad when companies try to push their otherwise awesome products to a wider audience and dumb things down in the process. Yes you _might_ get more revenue. Look at apple. It earns way more money than it did 15 years ago yes, but lost its soul in the process.


- Items having volume and mass
This is one thing where I am glad the game is not realistic. What do you gain if it is? You just have to run more back and forth. Not fun. My #1 favorite mod is long reach. Hate running back because I forgot something. Super mega annoying. Big backpack, that can hold a lot. Oh yeah. Why make a game like Total? We have Total for that...

- Miners outputing to belts
The early game is already annoyingly, painfully, irritatingly slow. I try to rush to bots in 1-2 hours - which became much longer now with bots after blue science, now I can build another N smelter lines and a million assemblers by hand, thanks, - so that I can just blueprint stuff and don't have to build smelter lines by hand. 96 inserters crafted and hand placed for one yellow belt of plates, jesus! At that's just one belt! Who thinks this is fun? 50% of the game time is building smelter lines by hand? If you add inserters to miners then it is yet another bunch of stuff that have to be crafted and placed by hand. Not fun.

- Biters
Why don't you have a biter intelligence option in the map settings? Dumb biters (like now) and clever biters that find the holes in the defenses and tear down power lines and pipes and belts. Implement it for those who enjoy torturing themselves with endless walls and turrets I like having some biters but I actually don't mind that every time I expand I am not torn to shreds.

my 2 cents.

[Dexter2078]

Hello there,
I know this is already a week out so I am late but here goes:

I read your article about the controversial opinions inside your developer team with great interest and before I give my feedback I'd like to let You know that this is a great move, putting this out there and asking us to comment on it.

There is one item on your list that sticks out to me and since I came up with a wall of text regarding it, I will only very briefly comment on the others first:

Inserters chasing Items:
I agree with leaving it the way it is

Weapons:
I am in favour of reworking the combat system

Biters more aggresive:

JUST YES!!!! In fact, as some others suggested, give us true tower defence options like triggering waves manually and a gamemode with increasing waves where you simply cannot survive in the longrun, survived waves beeing the highscore. Also additional specialized biter units like a boss: huge sprite, ignores walls and trees and lots of HP, or flying units that hunt down bots and/or are the ones specialized in the probing of defences you suggested, a burrowing unit... I'll stop now...

Clearing bases:

Isn't this higly dependent on how you set the "Enemy Expansion" settings? Wouldn't pushing those numbers up already result in faster repopulation of cleared areas? Anyway I'm all for more possibilities to configure biters and make them more dangerous.

Miners:

I am uncertain about this. In real life ore is considered bulk freight and in most, if not all cases of industrial mining, it goes from an excavator directly to a belt (My employer is a contractor for heavy industry like soft coal excavation, I see this very often). Somehow this pushes me towards let it be the way it is.

Boilers:
Make the icons more obvious, make tutorial explain features of the boiler more explicitly, don't change it.

Pipes rework:
I know this is a very unpopular opinion but I like the fluid system the way it is. Pipes with unlimited throughput? That just feels wrong to me (again real life industry experience). I sometimes even think it's not right to be able to send so much electric power through a single line without transformation (I'll show myself out...).

Robots:

Nerf them, I'm fine with that.

Items volume and mass:

This is a complex one, I think I will try to not form an opinion on this until you have a more detailed concept. In general I like realism and complexity so looking forward to what you come up with.

Ofcourse more Hotkeys, what could be wrong with that?

Returning ingredients:
I like the idea of scrap metal for example and a recycling recipe someone suggested.

Now, here is my main topic:

I would like to build a case for not taking the blueprint exchange function out, (making it a mod) since I believe it would be a mistake and at the end of the day might hurt the community and the game more than it would accomplish.

Let me give you my perception of the matter in detail (I beg you to correct me if I clearly do see things the wrong way):

I totally understand your reasons and frustration and the resulting realization that some players might need more incentive to create things on their own and not just copy and paste other peoples ideas. I believe this is a natural notion for anyone who creates things that others use as a service. Naturally you consider your options here and editing out a feature that permits (among other things) "unwanted behaviour" is always available to a software engineer.

But herein lies the train of thought that occurs so often in gamedesign that I do not understand at all: Just like in politics, the restriction seems always to be the first thing to be considered, though experience shows again and again that educating and explaining and leaving options available to a community is more fruitful in the longrun.

Also your perception of how people use blueprints is very different from mine:

Sure, there is always a certain ammount of people who always go straight for the "easy out", the "shortest route to success", the "copy and paste mentality". Reward with least possible effort.
And certainly here I can only speak for myself but I believe these people are a minority and one might even argue that some of them have good and understandable reasons to do so.

Let me give an example that will also lead to my next point:
Factorio in relation to the general current video gaming market is a very complex game, the learning curve might simply be too steep for a certain type of gamer albeit interest in the game is there (time available to invest vs. reward). The availabilty to exchange ingame layouts like Factorio does via blueprints for sure will be the tip of the scale for gamers on the fence.

It basically introduces a completely new way of learning the game besides reading and watching tutorials, let's plays and community guides.
Understanding a complex thing like an engine, a clockwork or a white science flask creating assembly line completely automated with combinators by reenginering the real thing is certainly very educational.
It enables the player to go a different route at a different pace if so desired.

I have maybe a dozen blueprintbooks in my library, only two are my own creations and yet my first base, completed a few days ago has only my own creations in it. Everything I pasted from other players, once I understood it, has been replaced by my own designs or at least has been changed and refined to a degree that it can be seen as something new.

And this will bring me to my most important argument:

Blueprint Exchange is a tool for learning, exchanging ideas and inspiration, much more than a quick walkthrough and a copy and paste tool.
To a gaming community, the possibility to exchange maps, layouts and other playercreated content is always like a booster injection.
Games that allow this, according to my experience, always have healthier and more diverse communities, that live much longer!

The approach should be a neutral stance to which type of learning one prefers. This mistake is still being made in most schoolsystems today.

So, I hear You say "Blueprint Exchange will still be there, It's just a mod now, thats all" And It's probably enough to calm the majority of the community and yet let me point out that still, this could leave behind an aftertaste. Given how the human mind works, some players that rely on other players blueprints more than most, might imagine you see them as players of second grade.
If really nothing much changes after all, whats the whole point?

The whole deed will then only be a statement!

As stated above one with selfevident merit but it comes in the form of a restriction. A prohibition to all players, even those that the message isn't directed at.

Those who like to use blueprints to experience the game in a way that it is not intended for, will continue to do so, and you wont be able to change that. Others will have to bother with mods now, even when they never used any before and were not planning to do so.
I cannot help but see an unfair discrepancy here.

If you want to make a statement, why not, instead of using a restriction, enhance it by saying that you will not let a minority of the community indirectly dictate what tools and content to use (As happened in many other gaming communities). Additionally, encourage creativity with events, actions and content that reward it.

I hope this doesnt come across as a rant, I am personally pretty calm about this. I am an old fart with 35 years of video gaming on my tally and I have seen some communities come, grow, change and go, so I somehow felt compelled to give you my viewpoint.
I have 600+ hours of Factorio and it was a great ride with fond memories and anecdotes.

I thank you for this and I am looking forward to the next 600 hours!

Sincerely,

Dex

[enchant]

my 2 cents.

Man, you said absolutely *everything* I wanted to say! Thanks for saving me the time.

Just to +1 on a concept you spoke of... One of the things I love about Factorio is that you can play it the way you want to play it. We're all different. I have no need for night or biters. I turned them both off within minutes of my very first game and haven't looked back. Same with Long Reach. And no one is going to tell me that I'm not enjoying the friggin' hell out of this game!

In the end, we all paid the same amount for the game (depending on when we bought it), and I should be able to get my enjoyment however I want.

When I first started the game, I did download blueprints from the net. Yes, I see the point that it could conceivably take away the fun of inventing factories myself, but on the other hand, I learned a lot from these blueprints. Small tricks that someone did that I hadn't thought of. I learned these tricks and incorporated into my own blueprint designs.

If you're going to make it difficult for players to grab BPs off the net, you should also disable their achievements once they watch any Katherine of Sky videos. Half of what I do in a game is something I learned from watching her videos. I never would have conceived of a build train on my own.

Now where is this artillery shell production blueprint you speak of??

[eradicator]

I just realized that *the campaign itself* uses blueprints to teach things to the player. Albeit they're not called "blueprints" because compilatron places them, but they serve exactly the same purpose: Showing the player a working setup to observe. So there's definetly some devs on the team who know that blueprints are great for teaching new concepts.