Train station priority!

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Helveg
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Train station priority!

Post by Helveg » Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:14 am

It would be nice if instead of roundtrip mode (visiting all stations in a fixed order) there was a way to set priority on a train station through the circuit network, allowing you to broadcast to trains with this station as a stop to prefer it over stops with a lower priority, or to skip certain stops if their priority isn't high enough. This is usefull also as a wait condition: stay at the depot unless a stop has a priority of above X. This is already quite possible by disabling the station, but it doesn't allow for relative importance to other stations only absolute binary decisionmaking.

conn11
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Re: Train station priority!

Post by conn11 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:36 am

Helveg wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:14 am
It would be nice if instead of roundtrip mode (visiting all stations in a fixed order) there was a way to set priority on a train station through the circuit network, allowing you to broadcast to trains with this station as a stop to prefer it over stops with a lower priority, or to skip certain stops if their priority isn't high enough. This is usefull also as a wait condition: stay at the depot unless a stop has a priority of above X. This is already quite possible by disabling the station, but it doesn't allow for relative importance to other stations only absolute binary decisionmaking.
That depends. It is already absolutely possible to achieve your proposal through the circuit network. If you have an amount of stations, wich are activated/ deactivated for example by a certain item/ resource count, you could compare the absolute values of each item count with the rest and therefore create a ranking by deactivating lower ranking stations. This would require some decider combinators to fully implement, but is definitely possible. furthermore in a actual setup (e.g. outpost maintenance) a more compact Setup, where not all possibilities must be compared with another, could certainly be designed.

Tekky
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Re: Train station priority!

Post by Tekky » Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:10 pm

Related threads:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=64362 Dynamic train schedule
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=63837 Selective Station Enabling

These two threads contain links to further threads which are also related.

Also, in the following threads, some ideas about tieing trains and the circuit network more closely together have been discussed:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=70935 Improved Access to Train ID
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=71817 Add extra reservation factor to locomotives

If the ideas in the threads mentioned above were implemented, then it should be possible to implement what you suggest.

For example, if this sub-suggestion of a global wireless circuit network were implemented and if conditional train orders were implemented in such a way that the condition can be tested against a value of this global circuit network, then it should be possible for the player to implement station priorities himself.

urza99814
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Re: Train station priority!

Post by urza99814 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:10 pm

conn11 wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:36 am
Helveg wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:14 am
It would be nice if instead of roundtrip mode (visiting all stations in a fixed order) there was a way to set priority on a train station through the circuit network, allowing you to broadcast to trains with this station as a stop to prefer it over stops with a lower priority, or to skip certain stops if their priority isn't high enough. This is usefull also as a wait condition: stay at the depot unless a stop has a priority of above X. This is already quite possible by disabling the station, but it doesn't allow for relative importance to other stations only absolute binary decisionmaking.
That depends. It is already absolutely possible to achieve your proposal through the circuit network. If you have an amount of stations, wich are activated/ deactivated for example by a certain item/ resource count, you could compare the absolute values of each item count with the rest and therefore create a ranking by deactivating lower ranking stations. This would require some decider combinators to fully implement, but is definitely possible. furthermore in a actual setup (e.g. outpost maintenance) a more compact Setup, where not all possibilities must be compared with another, could certainly be designed.
I think you can *mostly* achieve this idea with circuits, but not entirely. Consider a case where you have multiple trains with the same stop but different priority conditions. For example, one train that always stops at "secondary iron smelting" while another one goes to "primary iron smelting" unless "secondary iron smelting" has high priority. You can't just redirect the second train by enabling/disabling the secondary stop without also affecting the first. Instead you'd need to build a whole new station and direct the two trains to the two different stops.

I suppose you *can* still do that and achieve a very similar effect... But it's massively more effort. But I'm not sure if that's a useful enough use case to be worth adding the additional complication to avoid it. A more generalized solution would probably be preferable.

There is one other cool option if you "abuse" the priority system a bit...or just call it "mode" instead. Then you can have a defense outpost buffer stop where low priority (or "mode = 1") will mean that your outpost supply trains come to get supplies, while high priority (or " mode = 2") means the buffer is empty so a resupply train will come restock it. I have a few places where I stack multiple stations directly beside each other in order to do something like this, but that can make it hard to align the inserters properly without also unloading fuel or something. But again, there's more general solutions to that like trains reading from the circuit network or stops that change names or something like that.

conn11
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Re: Train station priority!

Post by conn11 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:47 pm

urza99814 wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:10 pm
conn11 wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:36 am
Helveg wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:14 am
It would be nice if instead of roundtrip mode (visiting all stations in a fixed order) there was a way to set priority on a train station through the circuit network, allowing you to broadcast to trains with this station as a stop to prefer it over stops with a lower priority, or to skip certain stops if their priority isn't high enough. This is usefull also as a wait condition: stay at the depot unless a stop has a priority of above X. This is already quite possible by disabling the station, but it doesn't allow for relative importance to other stations only absolute binary decisionmaking.
That depends. It is already absolutely possible to achieve your proposal through the circuit network. If you have an amount of stations, wich are activated/ deactivated for example by a certain item/ resource count, you could compare the absolute values of each item count with the rest and therefore create a ranking by deactivating lower ranking stations. This would require some decider combinators to fully implement, but is definitely possible. furthermore in a actual setup (e.g. outpost maintenance) a more compact Setup, where not all possibilities must be compared with another, could certainly be designed.
I think you can *mostly* achieve this idea with circuits, but not entirely. Consider a case where you have multiple trains with the same stop but different priority conditions. For example, one train that always stops at "secondary iron smelting" while another one goes to "primary iron smelting" unless "secondary iron smelting" has high priority. You can't just redirect the second train by enabling/disabling the secondary stop without also affecting the first. Instead you'd need to build a whole new station and direct the two trains to the two different stops.

I suppose you *can* still do that and achieve a very similar effect... But it's massively more effort. But I'm not sure if that's a useful enough use case to be worth adding the additional complication to avoid it. A more generalized solution would probably be preferable.

There is one other cool option if you "abuse" the priority system a bit...or just call it "mode" instead. Then you can have a defense outpost buffer stop where low priority (or "mode = 1") will mean that your outpost supply trains come to get supplies, while high priority (or " mode = 2") means the buffer is empty so a resupply train will come restock it. I have a few places where I stack multiple stations directly beside each other in order to do something like this, but that can make it hard to align the inserters properly without also unloading fuel or something. But again, there's more general solutions to that like trains reading from the circuit network or stops that change names or something like that.
Your example: 2 Trains, Smelters a and b with the requirement of supplying a if desired conditions are met.

Possible Solution:
You could measure the raw ore arraiving in the smelting stations. The corresponding train stations A and B are activated by virtual Signal A and B both =1, if a desired item count is present (for convineance sake let’s say <1k).

Train a is only supplying Station A so no problem there (if mandatory scheduling of Station A is wished, then there is no need to use circuits st all)
train b has Station A and B in it’s list, with the Circuit wait condition A=1 or B=1. Now a decider compares the raw ore count currently present at station A and B, if A>B a B=1 goes to station B and therefore the total value of B=2, so the wait condition isn’t met. Any present train b would leave or use Station B as waypoints to A. Not really skipping station B in any circumstance, but from a pratical standpoint the same result.
Sadly I‘ve currently no game access, so I couldn’t try it out.
As for the consideration of easiness of use: you have a point. But IMO I‘m not sure if it’s relevant enough to qualify as QoL.

Darinth
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Re: Train station priority!

Post by Darinth » Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:21 pm

Technically possibly to implement with a lot of very complex circuits spanning the entire map. This is one of those things that I feel a *more* intuitive solution should be available. Being able to limit (ideally with circuits, but I'll be pretty happy to just be able to specify the number in the UI) the number of trains a station can handle (number pathing to it and parked at it) combined with a circuit controlled station priority.

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Re: Train station priority!

Post by slippycheeze » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:05 pm

Honestly, once you get to "circuit control of trains" you are so far into the realm of "there is more than one way to do it" that you should be reaching for mods, not updates to vanilla. There are ... five, I think, at my last count, different mods that implement what y'all talking about here. Each does it differently, sometimes very differently, and none is inherently better than the others.

Given that, baking any one of them into core is probably an error: it'll at best strongly discourage the rest, if not just kill them, but it also will bring pain. Everyone who wants what LTN, or TSM, or stringy train stops, or the Fat Controller, or another mod strategy for this -- and doesn't get it from the core stuff -- will be up in arms, asking to improve the smart trains.

Adamo
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Re: Train station priority!

Post by Adamo » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:27 pm

Darinth wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:21 pm
Technically possibly to implement with a lot of very complex circuits spanning the entire map.
This sort of encompasses why I think it's probably not a good idea to go forward with an integrated thing. Keep It Simple Stupid.

Maybe a useful thing would be to let us transfer circuit signals along a rail path, or something to that effect.

Personally, I use a radio signals mod whenever I have to do something like this, rather than a fully-fledged train mod.

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Re: Train station priority!

Post by Lubricus » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:09 pm

It's not that hard to achieve an priority system in vanilla. 1. Name the station the same. 2. Wire up train-signals. Trainsignals set to red by wires ad an cost to the trains pathfinding algoritm. Note that trains only re-path in certain conditions, that makes it hard to make several trains path to different stations at the same time.

What I feel is lacking in vanilla Factorio is some way to send a trains to different station's depending on some conditions. There is no reasonable not overly complex and convoluted way to have several trains pathing to several stations at the same time set by conditions.

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