Friday Facts #305 - The Oil Changes

[Bilka]

There is a good and informative discussion here even without us interfering. We can consider feedback without directly responding to it. If interfering just means that I get shit thrown at me, of course I won't interfere, noone likes shit on their face.

You think that less communication would prevent the issue?

I am here because I find it interesting to see and understand different opinions and viewpoints, not because my opinion will affect the actual game. I don't make the decisions there. I'm just here to watch and understand, so there is very little difference on the actual outcome whether I say something or don't.

Now if this was a thread about the wiki, or the lua api docs, I'd definitely communicate, because those *are* areas where I make (final) decisions.

[Jap2.0]

There is a good and informative discussion here even without us interfering. We can consider feedback without directly responding to it. If interfering just means that I get shit thrown at me, of course I won't interfere, noone likes shit on their face.

You think that less communication would prevent the issue?

I am here because I find it interesting to see and understand different opinions and viewpoints, not because my opinion will affect the actual game. I don't make the decisions there. I'm just here to watch and understand, so there is very little difference on the actual outcome whether I say something or don't.

Now if this was a thread about the wiki, or the lua api docs, I'd definitely communicate, because those *are* areas where I make (final) decisions.

That was badly worded on my part, I intended it more to refer to Wube in general (the "we" in your post).

Looking at it further: I do see your point, and partially agree with it. If no one responded, everyone at Wube (and the company in general) would get stuff thrown at them; V, being the only one to respond in depth, got everything thrown at him :/

So now do I have any options other than to start a crusade against Kovarex or whoever as well?

[Reika]

I think the reason people are upset at the devs right now is that the update went live with the changes, and there was no post - from V or anyone else - here on the forums saying something to the effect of "we looked at all the options, and we still find the original idea to be best".

The lack of such a message, paired with it being pushed into an update, give the impression that the mindset with regards to all the feedback was at best "ah, whatever, we're still right, and we have the final say". Even if that is true - and the latter half certainly is - it is neither considerate nor in line with the level of...interaction Wube is generally known for to just state it so bluntly and seemingly silently discard two weeks of feedback without further comment.

[Yandersen]

None of them really solved all the issues - complexity, tedium, pacing. Some of them were more interesting than others but always with some flaw. The biggest problem with the chosen solution is that it's likely the players will build straight pipes next to basic oil refining refineries, and get the "Can't mix fluids" error. We have some ideas how to fix this already, but nothing confirmed yet.

Ok can you please tell me what exactly you do not like in this solution:

• BOP produces HO and PG
• Sulfur is produced from HO and LO
• Rocket fuel is produced from LO only
• Plastic is produced from PG
• AOP gets gas liquification (PG -> LO)
• Flamethrower ammo requires HO
• Blue science gets Sulfur and Plastic (or still red chips)

I am pretty sure there is no problem with complexity, no tedium and no issues with pace.
Player gets well visually aware of output imbalance due to direct conversion of HO->Sulfur and PG->Plastic. Balance can still be achieved by either storing or producing solid fuel.
Balancing 2 liquids is much easier than 3, there is no mess with pipes as there are only 2 output liquids, which obviously does not break player's mind. If a player can't solve such simple task than obviously Factorio is not for him.

AOP will still be a requirement for rocket fuel and will help player reach perfect balance in either way (Sulfur, or Plastic, or Rocket Fuel).

I am pretty sure that you should not simplify it any further than that. However this recipe does teach the player at least something new as FFF-304 does not teach anything new or good, it does only stimulate false solutions such as placing refineries adjacent to each other or pipes adjacent to refineries.

Anyways no solution really addresses the core issue - GUI indication of output blocking. So you are fighting with windmills here V.

Sure, having two outputs presents the "multiple outputs can block" early on, while not reducing the amount of things you need to do/worry about almost at all. Basic oil processing can still get stuck and that way it feels unsustainable, and the player just wants to rush advanced oil processing just like before - to get the functional version.
Sulfur not being from PG is dangerous, because it can easily happen that the player does not have enough PG sink (for example when starting to mine uranium and producing a lot of sulfuric acid, when producing accumulators and solar panels, maybe in combination with explosives). That way it is possible to get into a situation with "getting stuck" problems even if you already have proper Advanced oil processing set up including proper circuit-controlled cracking. The only way how this could happen otherwise is with Lubricant - typically only when you mass switch to express belts ... assuming you have enough iron plate/iron gear wheel production to show the lubricant being a bottleneck.

Thank you for explaining what is wrong with this solution. May I ask you why would this be worse than what Wube come with:

"So why not just changing one of the mining spots in crude oil deposits to output PG, so in case pumpjack is placed over it, it outputs PG, not crude oil? Isn't it the same thing in the end as processing via 1in-1out refinery of yours? Then you can skip BOP completely and introduce normal 3out-refinery together with crackings things at the point where AOP took place before. All goals solved, all current issues with your solution disappear. Or am I wrong here?"

From my point of view, the only difference is that the "pipe" coming from deposit site does not have to go through refinery, so there will be no "fluid mix" problem later on. No?

Or another - keep BOP and AOP as it is, but add boilers on liquid fuels. Early on it will be a sink, but later on, when player will decide to switch from steam electricity to solars/nuclear and abandon boilers, he will force HIMSELF to solve the balancing puzzle. Whenever the player HIMSELF decides he is ready for that.

Please, do respond why crippling refinery to a 1in-1out nonsense with all subsequent troubles it will bring is a better solution than at least those two?

[Bilka]

... there was no post - from V or anyone else - here on the forums saying something to the effect of "we looked at all the options, and we still find the original idea to be best".

Uhhhhhhh viewtopic.php?p=446390#p446390

[Reika]

... there was no post - from V or anyone else - here on the forums saying something to the effect of "we looked at all the options, and we still find the original idea to be best".

Uhhhhhhh viewtopic.php?p=446390#p446390

I missed that, but even still that came after the update. As a result, and as clearly implied by the "As you can see", the intent was for players to find out that the original changes were implemented by seeing it in the update, which is what I was talking about.


At this point, however, I am just going to make a mod to customize oil processing and await the next anvil some FFFs in the future when the next feature is gutted in the search for a few new players.

[Katamechanic]

Jeez, this V is just so special... Look even what version of his pointless two-weeks iterations he finally decided to put into the release! I am fairly shocked how much human-hours and brainwork vent in vain.

Good job alienating only dev who was willing to activelly discuss and brainstorm this change here on the forums and present ideas for tweaks to the rest of the team.

Yeah, don't agree with the changes like Yand, but I'm more angry at him than V. As much as I disagree with the Factorio dev team on this change, at least they aren't calling the community names and making a fool of themselves.

Yand ,in anything you do in life especially in the future, the last thing you want to do when convincing someone of your argument is to belittle them. That's a sure fire way of making sure what you're proposing never gets done; you've reduced the discussion so that person has to dig in to defend themselves. It doesn't matter how right you are, you've made it so they have no graceful way to compromise. You've also made people question if you're right since you are behaving so wrongly.

It's regrettable that we're on the same side of this argument.

To the devs: wish more got into the fray like V, but after comments like Yands, I understand. Still think the change is bad, don't like the current system, but it's better than the change, and so I will be locking to 17.59

Nevertheless, I appreciate that you were trying to balance; you guys are still above and beyond most devs. I'm happy I bought the game. I'll continue to follow and I hope it works out, but probably won't play without mods from now on. If anything this nuke of a nerf might have a cesium-137 lining; maybe I'll try my hand at modding. Thanks for the motivation.

Anyways, if nothing else you guys have created a great foundational game, and I don't doubt it'll influence a large majority of gamers to come.

[V453000]

... there was no post - from V or anyone else - here on the forums saying something to the effect of "we looked at all the options, and we still find the original idea to be best".

Uhhhhhhh viewtopic.php?p=446390#p446390

I missed that, but even still that came after the update. As a result, and as clearly implied by the "As you can see", the intent was for players to find out that the original changes were implemented by seeing it in the update, which is what I was talking about.


At this point, however, I am just going to make a mod to customize oil processing and await the next anvil some FFFs in the future when the next feature is gutted in the search for a few new players.

I'm sorry that you feel this way, but the update was basically being held back by the oil changes. The final discussions took place today very shortly before we pushed the release button. How would it have helped the situation if I wrote a message at that point in some place other than the thread about this specific update (I'd guess at the FFF discussion)?

[netmand]

The oil changes, whatever they wind up being, are fine to me. It's good to see the constructive discussions here but I do not support any comments that are purely subjective. I personally never found the problems; managing output blocks, how many items to make at what time, and when to tech into them; problems that need to be solved by the game but problems I would solve on my own. I didn't need to go to videos or wiki when I was a new player to solve these problems.

After a few thousand hours devoted to this game, I think I've come pretty far in working with the oil aspect of this game, yet even now I've come up with some more ideas I want to try after reading this thread. Determining the best way to get the most out of the tech I'm using and what items need differing amounts are problems I welcome and are major reasons of why I enjoy playing this game. To be honest I was ok with the changes as stated last week, but now wary that this will be tweaked a little more. I'm still ok with whatever actually gets implemented; and gotta give props to V bench'ing suggestions here.

[Reika]

I'm sorry that you feel this way, but the update was basically being held back by the oil changes. The final discussions took place today very shortly before we pushed the release button. How would it have helped the situation if I wrote a message at that point in some place other than the thread about this specific update (I'd guess at the FFF discussion)?

As stated, it would have made it clear that while having considered the feedback, you ultimately decided against it; my whole point is that silently doing so comes across as flippant and dismissive.

[bobingabout]

As 17.60 is out

sigh of disappointment

Jeez, this V is just so special... Look even what version of his pointless two-weeks iterations he finally decided to put into the release! I am fairly shocked how much human-hours and brainwork vent in vain. "Built-in flare-stack is out of the question" he said? OK. What he did? A built-in flare-stack that just burns LO and HO completely to 0. Why giving alternatives, right? Just cut out confusing outputs and give kids one to do a single thing with it. Is that a new Factorio approach? To fuck with this feedback and "cooperation with community" illusion bullshit, just ban me to help me waste no more time here...

Trust me, From a person who has Source access and can view more of the discussions that the devs have with each other than most people, V is actually one of the ones against the changes as they are (getting only petroleum) and the most vocal to having it changed.
I'm not going to name any other names, but, basically, not everyone in the dev team agrees on the current changes. Even the person who originally suggested that the oil phase be simplified doesn't like the end result. It's all a bunch of compromises. They have been listening to feedback and making changes as a result, they have been testing things out to see what works, and what doesn't.

I'm not saying I am for the changes as they are now, but I've seen suggestions that I liked agreed with be proposed to the team as a whole, and get rejected.

Changes will be made, and pretty much everyone who knows the game as it is now will be disappointed in one way or another.
However, they are making changes for a reason, we just have to grit our teeth and bear it.

Besides... if you don't like the changes, I'm sure someone will make a mod to undo it.
EDIT: Someone already did: https://mods.factorio.com/mod/old-basic-oil-processing
more than one: https://mods.factorio.com/mod/Pre0-17-60Oil

[tsen]

Trust me, From a person who has Source access and can view more of the discussions that the devs have with each other than most people, V is actually one of the ones against the changes as they are (getting only petroleum) and the most vocal to having it changed.
I'm not going to name any other names, but, basically, not everyone in the dev team agrees on the current changes. Even the person who originally suggested that the oil phase be simplified doesn't like the end result. It's all a bunch of compromises. They have been listening to feedback and making changes as a result, they have been testing things out to see what works, and what doesn't.

I'm not saying I am for the changes as they are now, but I've seen suggestions that I liked agreed with be proposed to the team as a whole, and get rejected.

Changes will be made, and pretty much everyone who knows the game as it is now will be disappointed in one way or another.
However, they are making changes for a reason, we just have to grit our teeth and bear it.

Besides... if you don't like the changes, I'm sure someone will make a mod to undo it.

All things considered, "actually, NOBODY likes these changes!" isn't the strongest defense that could've been mustered.

Edit: To expand on this, what I mean is, perhaps that should have been seen as a sign that this wasn't actually the right place to change?

[Reika]

Trust me, From a person who has Source access and can view more of the discussions that the devs have with each other than most people, V is actually one of the ones against the changes as they are (getting only petroleum) and the most vocal to having it changed.
I'm not going to name any other names, but, basically, not everyone in the dev team agrees on the current changes. Even the person who originally suggested that the oil phase be simplified doesn't like the end result. It's all a bunch of compromises. They have been listening to feedback and making changes as a result, they have been testing things out to see what works, and what doesn't.

I'm not saying I am for the changes as they are now, but I've seen suggestions that I liked agreed with be proposed to the team as a whole, and get rejected.

Changes will be made, and pretty much everyone who knows the game as it is now will be disappointed in one way or another.
However, they are making changes for a reason, we just have to grit our teeth and bear it.

Besides... if you don't like the changes, I'm sure someone will make a mod to undo it.

All things considered, "actually, NOBODY likes these changes!" isn't the strongest defense that could've been mustered.

That, plus the fact it goes very much to the point I made some days ago: If V is actually one of the ones most against the changes (among the dev team), why the hell is he the one tasked with defending them on the forums?

[Aflixion]

Trust me, From a person who has Source access and can view more of the discussions that the devs have with each other than most people, V is actually one of the ones against the changes as they are (getting only petroleum) and the most vocal to having it changed.
I'm not going to name any other names, but, basically, not everyone in the dev team agrees on the current changes. Even the person who originally suggested that the oil phase be simplified doesn't like the end result. It's all a bunch of compromises. They have been listening to feedback and making changes as a result, they have been testing things out to see what works, and what doesn't.

I'm not saying I am for the changes as they are now, but I've seen suggestions that I liked agreed with be proposed to the team as a whole, and get rejected.

Changes will be made, and pretty much everyone who knows the game as it is now will be disappointed in one way or another.
However, they are making changes for a reason, we just have to grit our teeth and bear it.

Besides... if you don't like the changes, I'm sure someone will make a mod to undo it.

All things considered, "actually, NOBODY likes these changes!" isn't the strongest defense that could've been mustered.

This. Probably an indication that the correct path forward was NO change.

[bobingabout]

Trust me, From a person who has Source access and can view more of the discussions that the devs have with each other than most people, V is actually one of the ones against the changes as they are (getting only petroleum) and the most vocal to having it changed.
I'm not going to name any other names, but, basically, not everyone in the dev team agrees on the current changes. Even the person who originally suggested that the oil phase be simplified doesn't like the end result. It's all a bunch of compromises. They have been listening to feedback and making changes as a result, they have been testing things out to see what works, and what doesn't.

I'm not saying I am for the changes as they are now, but I've seen suggestions that I liked agreed with be proposed to the team as a whole, and get rejected.

Changes will be made, and pretty much everyone who knows the game as it is now will be disappointed in one way or another.
However, they are making changes for a reason, we just have to grit our teeth and bear it.

Besides... if you don't like the changes, I'm sure someone will make a mod to undo it.

All things considered, "actually, NOBODY likes these changes!" isn't the strongest defense that could've been mustered.

Edit: To expand on this, what I mean is, perhaps that should have been seen as a sign that this wasn't actually the right place to change?

I didn't use those words.

what I actually meant want, what we ended up with was what people could agree one, even if not everyone was fully satisfied with the result.

I may not agree 100% with all the changes, but, looking at it from vanilla perspective only, it makes about 95% on my sense meter. most of me disagreeing with the changes stem from "I'm used to the old version" and "I'll have to make changes to my mods."

[jodokus31]

Or another - keep BOP and AOP as it is, but add boilers on liquid fuels. Early on it will be a sink, but later on, when player will decide to switch from steam electricity to solars/nuclear and abandon boilers, he will force HIMSELF to solve the balancing puzzle. Whenever the player HIMSELF decides he is ready for that.

That is the same behaviour as before, except using liquid fuel instead of solid fuel.
If that backups, you cannot decide yourself. Instead more tanks, more solid fuel or finally AOP and solve the puzzle. There not much of a solvable puzzle before

If liquid fuel exists, it would be a better hint, though.

[V453000]

Trust me, From a person who has Source access and can view more of the discussions that the devs have with each other than most people, V is actually one of the ones against the changes as they are (getting only petroleum) and the most vocal to having it changed.
I'm not going to name any other names, but, basically, not everyone in the dev team agrees on the current changes. Even the person who originally suggested that the oil phase be simplified doesn't like the end result. It's all a bunch of compromises. They have been listening to feedback and making changes as a result, they have been testing things out to see what works, and what doesn't.

I'm not saying I am for the changes as they are now, but I've seen suggestions that I liked agreed with be proposed to the team as a whole, and get rejected.

Changes will be made, and pretty much everyone who knows the game as it is now will be disappointed in one way or another.
However, they are making changes for a reason, we just have to grit our teeth and bear it.

Besides... if you don't like the changes, I'm sure someone will make a mod to undo it.

All things considered, "actually, NOBODY likes these changes!" isn't the strongest defense that could've been mustered.

That, plus the fact it goes very much to the point I made some days ago: If V is actually one of the ones most against the changes (among the dev team), why the hell is he the one tasked with defending them on the forums?

Because I took the changes as my responsibility and did a lot of iteration, and alternate proposals, to truly test that the original proposal is actually the best. From all the discussed things we believe it is. The arguments that I gave you are pretty much the same that people defending these ideas from the start would give you. Unless you want a head on a pike instead of arguments, it should not matter much who gives them to you? In the end I do agree with the FFF305 solution, it's just that I have implemented multiple other variants to be able to evaluate them properly.

[huancz]

Well, it finally dropped. I think the waiting in past few days was maybe worse than the change itself, and most of the posts were just reiterating arguments already made.

I won't update for now in the middle of my game, but will eventually when I'll be starting a new map. It's still a disappointment. The devs are adamant that blocking oil is THE problem they need to solve, despite many arguments against it. Maybe they have some information we don't, and they won't even hint at. Or they are just bad at getting their point across. If you take that into account, I'm not too surprised which solution they chose. I just hope that they have some specific metric in mind to measure if it helped at all. I think it won't, but I am sure I'm just biased. And still pretty green in the game.

Even if it ruined the game completely (which it doesn't, I'll just have to learn to belt different stuff around), at ~250h I got my money's worth and I don't intend to stop having fun just yet.

Remember that the devs regularly test the game with completely new players.
Sometimes with results that can be fairly surprising to more experienced players :
viewtopic.php?f=66&t=65345&p=402922#p402922

I can hardly "remember" that because I got the game at end of April, and spent most of the time playing instead of crawling forum. Only the oil change was important enough to make account here after discord pointed me at the FFF304. So, thanks for the link. But it doesn't change anything I wrote - if they plan to have some blind tests with truly new players or whatever, and find that it helped in some measurable way, then I guess we all were wrong. It's not the end of the world either way.

I could post screenshot from my 100% newbie start campaign (I accidentally clicked the OK button too fast - I noticed it asked me to send something somewhere, but not where I'd find it or where it should go), but it's offtopic here, the campaign doesn't deal with oil.

[Yandersen]

"I'll have to make changes to my mods."

Can't you just simply fix the oil to the way it supposed to be as before the patch?

[Reika]

Unless you want a head on a pike instead of arguments, it should not matter much who gives them to you?

Generally speaking, people are not as good at conveying the opinions of others as they are at stating their own, and so, yes, it does matter to some degree; assuming for the moment that you were relaying the ideas or responses of someone else, it is not unreasonable to question if that relay process introduced inaccuracies, omissions, or other errors.

That said, you seem to have said elsewhere in your reply that the characterization given earlier, which I was quoting, was itself inaccurate (I see irony in that...), which makes this kind of a moot point.