Friday Facts #304 - Small bugs; Big changes

[mcdjfp]

Sleeping on this has not improved my opinion of the proposed change. I really like the tutorial idea. If this is something that like train signals which needs a bit of a nudge to understand, provide that nudge. Don't bend the rest of the game out of shape. In addition to everything else, this change is massive enough that everything will need to be rebalanced as a result. Look at how many changes it triggered already.

If something must be done, add flare stacks. You are already proposing turning the refinery into a flare stack anyways, so what is the problem? The basic oil processing change uses the refinery to burn off the heavy and light oil leaving only the petroleum gas. That sounds like a flare stack to me. And in the base game it is only the 3 oil products that really need a way of burning them off.

Also, If you continue to nerf bots, the You are Doing in Right achievement will need to be reversed and insist on more buildings being build by hand than by bot. Some people like bots.

[bman212121]

I talked to my peers about this change, trying to see it from different angles and honestly for me, as an advanced player and into mega base stuff (as many of my peers are too from multiple communities), you just gave a UPS blessing.
Back of the napking on the fly math in my head just says: I do not need any cracking for my megabase any more except one small setup to crack light oil from coal liquefaction.

Yes I would have guessed that UPS efficiency would go up with this change. When you put it in terms of UPS, that should actually give a good indication that this is simplifying something. If nothing was optimized but the UPS requirements went down, then chances are good you reduced the amount of something in order to cause that change.

You really think that after you need to double oil refining and double oil extraction and logistic to compensate for the bad basic processing efficiency and the need to set up coal liquefaction you would still get a UPS advantage because you can omit cracking?

It's not just cracking, it's the fact that pipes can add a lot of UPS. You're taking away 3 of the 4 pipes required to make these setups. Do to advanced + cracking you need to deal with heavy, light, p gas, and water. Now you are only dealing with p gas. So chemical plants aside you have removed 3/4ths of the pipes, but probably more like 85% of them because you should be able to make this setup far more compact.

Which actually makes me think that this change is even more lopsided. Generally you're fighting with a lack of iron plates through this part of the game. So this would definitely make a dent in the amount of iron ore needed at this stage in the game. It just makes it so that going to advanced is even less useful because you will save a lot of plates by not upgrading.

[Amarula]

I really really love the changes to the laser lighting, reserving the refinery water input for water regardless of the recipe, optional rail obstacle avoidance. You guys are awesome!

I am not sure about the change to the basic oil production recipe. I agree with the others who point out that making the most advanced/desirable product (petroleum gas) first seems backwards, producing heavy oil instead seems more logical. However, it seems a lot of people trying Factorio get stuck at oil processing and give up; if this change makes it easier for them to hang on through the oil processing 'hump', so more of them stick around and play this game that we here all adore, then maybe it is a good thing.

I am not sure about the changes to the technology tree. I am one of those in the crowd jumping up and down saying 'I want my robots NOOOOOOOWWWWW.' However, I don't start new games very often (my latest game started at 0.17.0 is approaching 5K rockets launched), and while it may be a pain researching up to robots, it is only once per game. The changes to heavy oil=>lubricant are going to penalize both blue belts and electric engines for bots; I use both belts and bots, so balancing lube production between them is going to be a new challenge to overcome.

Thank you to everyone who has posted, it is wonderful to see so many others who share my passion for this wonderful game. And another heart-felt thank you to Klonan, Sanqui, V453000, Posila, Twinsen, Kovarex, and all the rest of the team at Wube.

[FuryoftheStars]

What have assemblers and miners been teaching people all this time when their outputs back up?

IIRC, the only multi-output vanilla non-petrochem recipe is centrifugation of uranium ore ?

The lesson that should have been learned off from assemblers, miners, and smelters is that when the output backs up, they stop producing. This concept should not change just because our number of outputs is now > 1.

[DaemosDaen]

I like the laserbeam glow, inserter fix, Rail Planner changes and even the Server stuff.

I DO NOT like the oil changes, not even a little.

First It dumbs down the game, you already have a mega-baser in this thread who said he's not going to use Advanced oil processing after this change under the guise of UPS saving. Assuming that you don't increase the Petroleum Gas given and are just removing the Light and Heavy Oils. If you do increase the Petroleum Gas, your just dumbing down the game, simple as that, there is almost no reason to use Advanced processing at that point.

Second it moved getting robots until after blue science. This is bad on so many levels. You are removing an early game way of playing

Third, you will have an issues with producing the Solid Fuel for Chemical Science since Light Oil will not be available, if you make it from Petroleum Gas, you will kill your early game red-chip production. The whole point was to give people a use for the Light Oil. Petroleum Gas for plastics, Light Oil for Solid Fuel and Heavy Oil used for Lube for robots and more solid fuel This is not that complicated.

I would advise at making the game stable with the recipes and research as it was on Friday, since we know that new players do not play experimental.

My suggestion would simply be to use the tutorial system used for Rails to show/explain oil. Maybe make a way to access relevant tutorials from the research screen.

[someone1337]

Please DONT add flarestack.

It makes zero sense to add more temp. throw-away machines. We already have gun turrets + steel furnaces which we cannot un-build.

Im not really sure, why ppl would not manage to build 2 chemplants to convert the 2 oils to solid fuel and store that for later, when ypu will need it, or use it to fuel your boilers.

Also: i always rush con-bots... which now gets delayed by alot

[Serenity]

Also, the reason people get stuck at oil processing isn't just the oil itself. It's the chains after it too. After oil you then need to set up plastics. And then red circuits. And then blue science (which takes a long time and can be pretty massive). It's really a lot of stuff to finally have a proper sink for all that oil. Even knowing what to do it's quite a bit of work before everything is moving.

[BlueTemplar]

What have assemblers and miners been teaching people all this time when their outputs back up?

IIRC, the only multi-output vanilla non-petrochem recipe is centrifugation of uranium ore ?

The lesson that should have been learned off from assemblers, miners, and smelters is that when the output backs up, they stop producing. This concept should not change just because our number of outputs is now > 1.

Perhaps, except some people clearly fail to learn it...

[morsk]

I think it would make more sense to move sulfur and batteries to after chemical sci too. Only affects accumulatiors.

Cliff Explosive, batteries for Modular Armor, Rockets. I'm not sure rockets will ever be good, but with Laser Turrets pushed farther, they may fill a niche for long-range attacks that don't require blue science.

[otakushowboat]

I'll add my voice to the crowd in thinking that the change to basic oil processing is not a good idea for the reasons stated by many prior.

I think that the proposed alternative being discussed of producing heavy oil with being able to get oil cracking earlier, if not unlocked at basic oil processing, is a better option. That option also has its weaknesses, as previously stated in this thread. Advanced oil processing will likely need to be tweaked, as there would otherwise be little point to using it if you already have total control of your heavy, light, and petrol production via cracking from basic giving heavy oil. That said, I would rather have that than only having petrol from basic processing with all the other myriad changes that have to go along with it. Heck, I'd rather there be no change than this "fix."

As currently slated for the next version, I will be reverting the change of only petrol from basic oil processing via a mod, as many others here have also said they would do.

[xtmq]

Changing basic oil processing? Really? I had to check my calendar. But today is 20 July, not 1 April...
Come on guys, just write it was a bad joke.

[BlueTemplar]

I'm not sure rockets will ever be good, but with Laser Turrets pushed farther, they may fill a niche for long-range attacks that don't require blue science.

Rocket fuel is pretty expensive to research, but rockets are pretty good at getting rid of dangerous nests one nest/worm at a time without having to go all the way in with flame turret pushing.
And while they are harder to get than land mines, they also probably require less skill to use on offense.
(Moving solid fuel, and therefore rocket fuel to blue science would cause problems for them though...)

[Llama]

Although I personally keep my rails straight and charge through cliffs and trees, having a modifier key to allow obstacle avoidance will be good for other players, and the game as a whole. Illuminating beams look great, when the first dark beams came out I was hoping illuminating beams would follow!

Even though petroleum gas is in the greatest demand for plastics, it feels a bit lame and disappointing to turn oil straight into petro, and would leave me short on heavy oil for lubricant which I sometimes have enough issues with already. It seems much more intuitive to add a new basic recipe to refine crude oil into the next most similar thing, heavy oil, and let the player crack that into what they see fit. No issues with multiple output plumbing or outputs getting full at first, and lets the player expand and crack at the ratios they desire, and they'll learn about ratios while doing so rather than having all 3 oils forced upon them, producing things they don't need and getting stuck. Simplicity can come at the expense of efficiency, it'll get stuff done but there's always advanced processing for when the player wants to sit down and make the most of their oil patch.

Use of the flare stack is an option, it's inefficient just burning oil away but it keeps things running at least, players can then fine tune it to minimise wastage and maximise efficiency. Smaller simple refineries seem like a bad idea, another temporary building that requires a complete rebuild if the building is smaller than normal refineries, but if the basic crude>heavy was done in chemical plants, players can still make use of those buildings again.

It's been a while, but I don't recall my first experience with the challenge of oil being negative, just a unique puzzle to solve besides my inability to space things out nicely and reserve enough land :p

[Yijare]

I'm latching onto bobing here...

I like the idea of being able to specify what input and output an ingredient/result uses.

however, I am not keen on the change to oil processing. Part of what you've said in the past for not changing things is that they're a puzzle to be solved. By making this change (removing light and heavy oil) to oil processing, you're removing the puzzle, something you've previously said you would NOT do. If you're changing your stance on this rule, does this mean near handed inserters, and other such "removes from the puzzle" elements will be added to the game soon?

As I stated before they are trying to oversimplicate the game because 'new players'. New Players shouldnt be the sole focus of this. Yes they are what brings in the cash but they are not why did game GETS new players in the first place.

I can see such a change triggering a bots vs belts war again.

That one never realy subsided, didn't it?

I didn't see mention of flammables in that list, flamethrower fuel is made from light and heavy oil, where is flamethrowers in the tech tree? they only require SP2 and Military. this change is going to push them WAY back.

and delaying payback to biters or effective defense alltogether

Also, the idea that basic gives lots of heavy and light oil, and little PG, but advanced gives lots of PG and much less light and heavy oil would say to me that the low tech end of oil is heavy and light oil, and the higher end tech level would be PG, so you making such a change is backwards to the expectation.

'only' one output Idea is kinda oversimplyfying the game yet again... and thats why they do it, because the new players dont want to think but rather have every bit of game dilivered in mouth fitting pieces . WUBE will stick to this and it will ruin the game in the long run.

[...] is going to completely destroy the playstyle of many players, and the flow of many mods.

Destroy? Obliberate is more fitting of a word.

Also, my mods are fairly dependant on the heavy oils being a low tech ingredient, I'm afraid this is one of those changes that my mods will have to revert, it's just too breaking to the flow not to, and I imagine that many other modders will have a similar feel about this change.
I personally do not like the (overall) change and will be reverting it in my mods, but that's mostly because of 2 things. My mods use heavy (and light) oil a fair deal in lower tech recipes, and locking more technologies behind SP3 messes with my tiering system.

Your Mods change a fair deal of things. And yes, i'd rather play a game of angel's + bob's than vanilla in 0.17.

[zenos14]

Others have said it better, but I really don't like the oil changes
Love the changes otherwise, but the oil one just seems ill conceived

[FuryoftheStars]

What have assemblers and miners been teaching people all this time when their outputs back up?

IIRC, the only multi-output vanilla non-petrochem recipe is centrifugation of uranium ore ?

The lesson that should have been learned off from assemblers, miners, and smelters is that when the output backs up, they stop producing. This concept should not change just because our number of outputs is now > 1.

Perhaps, except some people clearly fail to learn it...

If they’re failing to notice & learn this concept by this point of the game, I doubt that they’re going to learn it with yet another 1 output recipe. We’re just delaying this now to advanced oil and then you end up with the same questions at that point.

It makes me wonder why they’re not noticing this, though. Is it cause most of the games they play don’t deal with multiple outputs? If that’s the case, then the only way you’re going to not have people get stumped and quit at this point is to take away every multi-result recipe, or make them completely optional.

[Fran-key]

Nope, don't like the oil changes.

Light oil is useless basically, this won't really teach new players how to manage multiple products any better, and it doesn't encourage changing to AOP once you have it, just encourages making two setups. Check the Reddit discussion, I saw a number of good alternatives there.

[NaurEnForven]

The oil change seems really weird to me. It completely changes the way you have to approach the game and forces you to make inefficient choices as en experienced player.
Aside from all availability chain changes it causes (lube % flamethrower). It seems to me that this will be very frustrating for anyone who currently uses light oil to produce solid fuel since it is the best option.
Furthermore, I don't think it will actually help new players.
When I first started playing Factorio what made Oil difficult for me was that it was an entirely new system that I had no clue about. I was still inexperienced with assembler/belt/inserters as well as the item receipts. Setting up a "normal" assembly line was really hard. When all of that is still shakey Oil comes and introduces an entirely new mechanics. The parallels between an assembler and a refinery took me a long time to actually grasp. For me, that was the first difficulty. The fact that fluids back up wasn't even a concern. It certainly is an important factor that can lead to a lot of confusion for new players, but I think the change you made does not help in any way.
I personally think it would be more effective to make the refiners show the problem visually. The same goes for pipes. Make it easily visible if a refinery is working and how much fluid is inside a pipe. That should let players easily understand the issue of backed up fluids.
There are also many other possible ways to change the system. For example, I've read one that suggested two different refineries, a basic and an advanced one. Since this has been a problem for a long time, maybe you should revisit the Fluids on a basic level and change them completely.

Long story short, I think the change to the Oil is badly thought out and ineffective. Please go back to the drawing board.

[FuryoftheStars]

Make it easily visible if a refinery is working

Just want to point out that everything in the game has some sort of an animation showing when it's working. In the case of the refineries, it's the flames coming out of its flare stack. If there are no flames, it's not working. And then opening the refinery's gui will highlight in red the problem spot, whether it's backed up output or lacking input.

[arrow]

I'm not a fan of the oil change. I tend to get starved on lubricant while transitioning from red to blue belts. Removing the high yield heavy oil recipe is going to be tedious.

Constructive idea: Add the 'old basic' recipe as a second recipe unlocked by advanced oil processing. So we have an option to work with larger quantities of heavy oil when needed.